Tactics for Reco mission

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Hi :)

 

Well, I have a little problem and I'd like to know your opinion about it.

It's about Recon mission.

I don't manage to achieve it without getting shot down.

 

I have read a few about real tactics used mostly by USAF or USMC for Reco, knowing that the most dangerous part was the flight over the target, as the plane have to be steady and is exposed to AAA and SAM.

 

In WOE, it's not a big deal and it was OK with such planes as the TF-104 or the RF-4C, both unarmed.

Take off, proceding to Waypoint 3, then go down under 100 ft (turn on ECM), taking few altitude above waypoint 5 for taking the shots, then break and full throttle (100 ft) 'till waypoint 7. Mission is over, waypoint 8, approach, landing, great...

 

But, with that Finback-B (you can see it in the screenshot thread) it's impossible to reach waypoint 7.

It has power, flares, decoy, ECM, wingman to escort, weapons for defence, but it doesn't work.

I really think that the difference is the effectivness of the interceptors (AIM-120, what-if F-106, regular F-4E), but I get shot by a pakistani F-7 fitted with AIM-9P.

I tried to run (big failures), I tried to fight (failed, I may practise more...), but the more successfull trial was when I was strolling back, in order to save fuel, with F-23, CF-188, F-4E, F-106G/H awaiting above.

So, what do you think about reco mission with a powerfull, enemy aligned plane, during the 2000's years?

I could modify the plane a bit further but it's not what I want. I'd like to experiment tactics...

 

There must be a lot of weird things in my english, I do apologize for that :)

 

Thanks for reading, feel free to comment...

 

Cliff

 

Thank you Erwin_Hans for your Finback-B!

_

Edited October 17, 2009 by Cliff11

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Hello :)

 

I had a success, only one.

I post it to wink at Wrench because it was over the Salomons V3 "WW2 install / not designed for jets" terrain :)

 

This terrain is one of the most pleasant of my install and jet flights are terrific (Am i going to take off? Am I going to land? ...before the end of the runway)

 

Well, the stuff was not to exceed 150 ft, except between waypoint 9 and 10.

It means that it was at the top of the trees or just above the surface of the water going from island to another island.

Get intercepted two times ; the first F-106 stalled twice (too bad) and the second wasn't fast enough to catch me ; no Genie in their weapons bay.

 

It didn't work over Lybia (another Wrench's, I am a fan!) because it's water or desert, no place to hide...

A F-15 locked on me and then, "goodbye". It's fast enough, it's not far from his base and it has sharp weaponery.

 

"Cliff, you idiot! Won't you just fly F-15 and take out reco Finback?!"

 

_

[arrow80 0]

Well, in a recon mission when leaving target I would ceratinly fly as low and as fast (in full burner at least till you can get from hot area) as possible, while trying to use terrain masking to avoid detection or locks from enemy assets. The rest is just luck. Certainly, also the mission should be planned in the way that you should have enough fuel to be able to use full burner on egress. I always save as much fuel as possible before IP to have that extra speed punch on egress. I don't know if that helps:)

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Yeah, sure it helps!

 

I started this topic to have opinion of pilots, real or virtual.

The thing is any direction is good to try, it's a sim, so I'd like to try as many ways as possible, except changing the plane and the "enemy" alignment because that's too easy, that's my challenge. If I can do it like that, I will be able to do it with any powerfull plane.

 

My precedent successfull attempt made me think about the "Thud ridge", north of Hanoi, that was a real tactic for F-105 pilots to protect themselves. Using the terrain to "hide" seems to be part of the success.

 

Your post gives me two things to work on, or two answers to search for :

 

"fly as low as possible", do I fly as low as possible or should I practise that further to stick with the ground?

I had super fun flying Julhelm's RA-5C (thanks) but I hit the ground too many times it made me more prudent than before. Maybe I should practise that to be more aggressive on low altitude flying? I read that Israeli F-4E pilots flied as low as their skill permit them, even if they were not at the same altitude each other, and also that USAF Invader pilots practised their low flying during the Korean war, for exemples.

 

"planned the mission" of course! I didn't really do that. Every serious pilot knows that every flight must be planned carefully.

Joining waypoint 3 or 4 as slow as possible to save fuel maybe a good start, also to let interceptors fly away, but sometimes they scramble at the last time.

And sometimes I get shot down between waypoint 3 and 4 :/

 

For maximum speed, it's logical but it may not be the right plane to count only on that.

Very fast plane, 1340 km/h at sea level, that is +720 knots (there's MiG-29 Klimov RD-33s inside ) but F-15 just follow me 2500 ft above (launching AIM-7M).

Running away as fast as possible is the key if the "guardian" ain't too strong and too fast...

I think that the F-8II is a large plane, which make a large target to shoot at, so if I want to speed, it means that I should not be seen by opponents, flying lower?

(more powerfull ECM? Flares and Decoys party? Bird of Prey's cloaking device?)

 

Anyway, thanks for your reply :)

[Lt. James Cater 62]

I was typing a long response to this some time ago but stopped when i realized it was turning into a standard Recce primer.

 

The only thing i can think of is loading up with all the tanks you can carry and first go high up and try to probe for a weakly defended sector. Take long roundabout routes if you have to.

 

If or when you figure they are onto you hit burners and go for the deck. Once there go full military power toward and use terrain for all that it's worth. Within 20 miles or so of the objective punch tanks and hit full burners about 10 miles out for the pass.

 

Can't give an opinion about F-15 intercepts since i've never been in that situation.

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Lt.

 

Well, now it's obvious I was missing a capital point just thinking about "how can I get out of here after the pass?"

 

Planning a navigation seems to be the key for the first part of the mission and should be too very usefull to RTB.

I like that, I made some big maps of the GermanyCE and Vietnam terrains and I use them when I really want to do the job.

Funny part is that I made reco flights to draw them :)

 

So, first : "make a map"

 

Then, there's two tasks that come to my mind.

 

Find bigger droptanks for the plane (I got to check the load limits), and maybe a smaller reconpod to let the center station available for a big tank.

 

Then, I read in an aeronautics book that you can find the lower RPM or EPR to fly the longest possible and the farthest possible.

You got to test the plane and make a curve with the results of the tests. The two entries are speed (x) and RPM (y) and the plane must not gain or lose altitude.

The lower point gives you the RPM for the longest flight, and the tangent from zero gives you the RPM for the farthest flight.

(If I got it right, I am no mathematician or pilot myself...)

 

Then, second : "test the plane"

 

I won't make an attempt that soon!

But there's also stuff I didn't realise : "If or when you figure they are onto you hit burners and go for the deck".

I may use the radar to avoid to be close to them, so I may "hide" full power on the deck before they lock on me. Can be smart, uh?

I read a topic about turning on/off radar and ECM, and there wasn't really one way to do that.

Another answer to find...

 

Third : "you're not done with it"

 

So Lt., you've never been hunted by F-15?

You're missing something, it's most challenging.

Give it a try with aggressors F-16 or F-5.

With the Shenyang F-8II, I've only escaped once. I was testing the HUD sight and I shot both of them with guns, that's weird... a bug maybe?

 

Fourth : "avoid F-15 or start a topic about how to escape F-15"

 

Thanks for your help!

I got a lot of things to try, next attempt within...

two weeks?

 

:)

[Lt. James Cater 62]

When i get a new computer i plan to go all out and fly everything possible.

 

At the moment i'm in a Spanish RF4C during the 1986 campaign and i've also flown Recce Phantoms in the incredibly difficult ODS campaign.

 

To begin with, navigation is of utmost importance. Just planning a simple route is not enough, What aircraft are based at certain bases becomes of vital importance as well as taking an educated guess at the ground defenses in certain areas.

 

I'm curious to see what the fuel capacity is of a Finback. Even with the Phantom's large max fuel load i'm always checking the fuel gauge and have cut it very close on a few occasions.

 

I did make a notable error in the last post. It's best to hit burners 10 miles from the objecttive and only stay that way until you are out of the threat area of the local defenses,then go back to non burner settings.

 

The soonest it's safe it's time to go back to altitude for both speed and fuel conservation.

[eraser_tr 29]

Know your enemy. If what they're using has Home-on-Jam, then stronger ECM won't do zip as the ECM is pointing them right at you.

 

Try taking wingmen with A2A armament and attempt to clear the skies before going over a target area if it's aircraft killing you. Then fly low to avoid SAMs and AAA isn't exactly a threat if you're fast. If there aren't any fighters around and it's SAMs getting you, equip the wingman for SEAD with ARMs and whatever A2G ordinance you like. Order him to start taking out SAMs. Or better yet, combine the two tactics. Recce missions default to 2 planes. Add one more, equip 1-2 for SEAD and 1-3 for A2A. Let one distract the SAMs while you get the pictures and the other distract the fighters.

[jaeger_301 0]

 its not that hard from the tactics but the actual performing can be ;)

 

1) go undetected in - 2) perform your task - 3) go as fast as possible out

 

well, the enviromend can make the mission from challenging to impossible - here comes it do "know your enemy", i wouldn t recommend a recce mission in an area with an active SA 10. recce missions are the most dangerous.

 

lets see what works:

 

use terrain masking as long as possible, get an escort, lets go a sweep flight ahead of you go into the target area.

 

learn and adapt, also consider that some planes have been removed from recce duty because they couldn t survive ( F101, U2) or the ROE has been changed.

 

know your enemy is the key to success, what in WOV works - low and fast, must not work with WOE or Falcon4 in a 1990/2000 scenario: - in an area with SA15 its safer to fly over the target area at 10 000 feet or more.

 

 

cheers

 

Jaeger

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Hello guys :)

 

Well, first part is to try tactics and, yes you're right, performing gonna be the toughest part.

I really need to improve the tactical side of my flying, low and fast is not enough even if I really want to fly (a little bit) lower.

 

"Know your enemy" the only way to win a war I guess...

But the research won't be hard as I know which folders to look at (that's unfair).

 

Getting an escort, yeah, sure.

Tasking wingmen to A2A or SEAD is clever and should be done for every Recce mission.

I'm gonna try that when I'll give up the Shenyang and try my new Recce tactics knowledge with others planes.

 

But... for the moment I'm flying a "what-if", a F-8IIPR.

R stands for Recce (reco in my language) and P stands for ...Paran.

The Finback I fly is a Parani one, it's a part of my challenge. And, if you look at the Paran entry nation, you will find that the PilotTrainingStandard is "Poor".

So my wingies will do their job but I don't think that they'll win any victory in a dogfight against anyone (No offence to Parani, I fly in your airforce guys...)

And that "what-if" status is very usefull to change anything I want, while I keep some limits.

So I'll try anyway, I like company :)

But I won't change the PilotTrainingStandard.

 

About the fuel capacity of a Finback, I found 8805 ib internal (3995 kg) and 3095 ib external (1405 kg).

I found also that it could carry (in RL) three droptanks : 1 X 1400 L and 2 X 800 L, which means (weeeell..., mmmm...,) 3000 liters of fuel in external.

??? Does 3000 L of jet engine fuel correspond to 3095 ib??? I really don't know...

Anyway, in the Data.ini file, there's 3400 kg (~7494 ib), so it means that I can pump +500 kg of fuel more (if the internet datas I read are right).

In the data.ini file of the RF-4C Phantom, there is 5890 kg of fuel (internal).

 

I know I didn't choose efficiency when I started Recce with Parani Finback, that's the way I am.

Doesn't mean that I don't like USAF RF-4C or USN RA-5C, and many many others.

Sims allow tough things to try :)

 

Thanks for your advices, they may save my (virtual) life :)

 

 

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Just finished a mission a short while ago...

The initial approach was at 30,000ft. This area one of my favored spots to penetrate enemy airspace. It allows a nice back door entry of sorts. At this moment i'm diving to about 1500ft.

Now i'm doing my thing. Low altitude, high speed, alone and unarmed and unafraid. ! Note where all the action is. The hope is that the enemy is distracted by a mass of targets and you'll be able to slip by unnoticed.

Just after i reached the initial point a Mig overflew me and then manuvered to 6 high. I had already punched tanks since they were empty and so i knew i had the advantage. He fired a pair of Atolls but the the range and flares made him miss. At 10 miles i hit the burners and knew then the Mig was no further threat. The pass was also done from a direction that only needed a slight course change to head back towards the front lines.

 

In total it followed for perhaps 30 miles but SAM and AAA was the constant worry. After the pass, stayed in burner until the next waypoint about 30-40 miles and then climbed back up to altitude to next the next point and went home.

 

The real funny part is that the target area was only about 200 miles flight from the base but I had to almost triple the distance to avoid the teeth of the enemy defenses!

 

In all this, amongst the great advantage of the RF4C as a Recce platform is it's tremendous fuel capacity. The version i'm flying at the moment(EdA)has 22,000lbs of fuel that is really a lifesaver. Now i'm really curious about trying to achieve the same results in a Finback. Perhaps i'll check things out during the weekend.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Lt. James Cater

[Lt. James Cater 62]

the best way to avoid detection is to:

 

stay REALLY low (under 200ft) with ECM off

or

stay over the clouds if bad weather with ECM on

 

that work for SAMs

 

uh no need to mention that you need you to turn radar OFF when entering hostile flyzone...

 

my tactic is... fly low, ecm off, eyecandy on RWR. if SAMS spot you, turn away, try a little ECM ON OFF ON OFF and then when RWR stop warning leave ECM off.

i always ask AWACS babe nearest bandit, listen other flights for bandits.

 

then as someone said, SAVE FUEL, no burner takeoff, cruise speed at low throttle, do the photo and then FULL burner away or burner only when you need to run.

 

i always use ECM when DETECTED... anyway recon mission with USA planes are easy... ECM power is unmatched... the hard thing is go recon with a MiG with sucky ECM.

Not so cut and dried. Last year i was working on a SAM map for WOE and was shot down 4 times in 7 missions flying RF4Cs.

 

If possible, i'll go into detail tommorrow after i get out of work

[Vigilant 1]

I was typing a long response to this some time ago but stopped when i realized it was turning into a standard Recce primer.

A bit OT, but is there a Recce primer? All what I've read deals with the fighters making news and bombers making history.

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

I did a new attempt, but I crashed into the Mediterranean Sea while I was turning. 20 ft is not enough altitude.

Practise and practise...

 

Special courtesy of Dhimari Intelligence :

 

 

_

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Eraser_tr, you're right about "home on jam", my ECM is OFF now. I didn't know that...

 

ASRAAM, that's good news. Are you flying "friendly alignment"? Because "enemy alignment" doesn't bring much concern about SAM, on my install (WOE/V).

It will worth a try, a recce over Hanoi, near 1972... Low and fast, that's what I like!

 

About the Finback over Lybia (or Italy), I've got bad news : +1200 kmph (~650 knt) at 50m (~150 ft), a Hawk 127 just shot me with an IRIS-T :/

Forget what I said about F-15, the Real Threat is that Air Superiority Monster, the Hawk (...the trainer).

 

I'd rather be alone, but that happened 10 miles to target. Was I supposed to "wait" out of range of that Hawk (that I didn't notice anyway), while I was speeding, trying to escape F-106s on my tail? Once again, is "flares party" an option?

 

Let me introduce to you an enemy of mine, that I praise a lot, a "what-if" F-106G (this one is Italian), thanks to Pasko and Column5 for the F-106A.

The little oil stain at sea was me... "Quel boulet!"

 

 

_

[Lt. James Cater 62]

A bit OT, but is there a Recce primer? All what I've read deals with the fighters making news and bombers making history.

 

As far as Recce goes, i've seen a bit of practical advice on a thread some time ago. Perhaps i should go ahead with the material i was working on and present it for critique.

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Please Lt., go ahead!

I'll be your first reader

 

!!! !!!, a success over Wrench's South California. Hidden by the mountains from the beggining 'till the target (Los Angeles).

The point was not to hit the mountain, my Recce challenge is by night...

Still F-15s on CAP.

[Lt. James Cater 62]

What you see above is the result of flying over a 23mm gun that just happened to have one hell of a sharpshooter on the trigger.

 

With every pass over a target, you roll the dice. There is no way around it.

 

Anyways let me get down to business...

 

My approach is different from Asraam's. In an RF4C i put the throttle to 68-69% and keep it there for virtually the entire mission. After takeoff, i climb to 25-30,000ft and take advantage of the high speed made possible by the altitude as as well as improved fuel consumption.

 

Route planning is key for me.

The target is not that far into enemy lines but i wasn't exactly sure about the SAM defenses and number of enemy fighters were based in the vicinity. Checking the map carefully i saw that the target was located in a salient so i decided on the route above. that meant that all i had to do was keep the heading from the IP over the target and just boogie on in a straight line back over the Front.

 

BTW that was the mission i got hit.

 

ECM is a rare thing. I prefer to hit it about 5 miles out and keep it on while dropping chaff on the way out the exit door. Shilkas are THE number one threat as far as i'm concerned. Them buggers can ruin your day in a hurry.

 

Recce work is not an easy business. At the moment of truth there are no fancy manuvers or weapons that will accomplish the mission. Straight and level in the target area while gritting your teeth doing what on occasion amounts to facing a firing squad. There is no "stand off" in this. To, over, and beyond the target you WILL go.

 

 

There is no other way!

 

PS- Could a MOD edit out the repeat screenshot. Somehow it occured and i don't think i can fix it without screwing something up.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Lt. James Cater

[Biggus 0]

I keep it pretty simple - Cruise at 30k, pick a route that offers the least risk in terms of SAM and CAP engagement, and use terrain to mask my ingress from the IP to the target when I can. 150ft most of the way, if not lower. Pop up to 400ish on full burner at 3 miles, drop back down into the terrain and keep the speed up for the egress. Works for me most of the time, provided my bird is fast and full of fuel. I prefer the FGR.2, feels the fastest on the deck.

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Interesting flights today.

 

I've decided to let the Shenyang cool down and fly a recce mission as described by you, flying "friendly alignment".

I chose the mighty RA-5C Vigilante and Vietnam terrain by 1972 period of time.

Nightflight of course.

 

Fully loaded (4 droptanks and 1 fuelpack), I realised that the job is more simple, but still not easy (I was hoping).

It took me three attempts before I really get serious. Trying to turn Vigilante to submarine (X1) and not following the safety advices about altitude (shot by SAM on the way back X2). Then there's my fourth attempt, the successfull one, when I get hit by a MiG-21F's Atoll... no rudder left!

 

So, the basis is working, the thing is to adapt the flight to "where I go", "when", "which opponents" and "what plane I fly".

Vigilante is not fastest than Finback, but is sure more solid. Navy designed plane I guess :)

 

_

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

I tried the MiG-25R (Indian Air Force) too.

I find it very difficult to handle at low altitude and most of the time I had to fly by IFR (and I don't know how to [altimètre-radar, horizon artificiel, bille-aiguille, variomètre et tachymètre, et le compas aussi peut-être? Quelqu'un peut-il m'aider à traduire tout ça en anglais?], pretending to do so as the bird keep flying).

Over Salomons V3 by night it's pure fun, as long as I follow the "safety recce rules" (MiG-25 isn't faster than IRM).

 

There were a F-14 CAP, so I delayed the take off for one hour, using the time compression.

I don't think that it's cheating because flight delays happen everyday in every airport... :)

 

That MiG-25R is very impressive, in a different way than the RA-5C.

I should say that Foxbat, Vigilante and Phantom are planes providing power and safety, even with a lousy pilot like me.

I would compare the Finback to the Starfighter, both are fast and efficient, but don't mess with them, they won't forgive.

I don't talk about quality, I mean that recce requires fastness, endurance, discretion and flexibility. That's a amount of things, just for the plane.

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Amazing!

 

I did a mission with a F-104G w/orpheus pod (RNLAF) over Germany 1986, and it was real piece of cake!

MiG-25 on CAP were late and Shilkas didn't shoot (?). Why?

 

No ECM, no flare, no decoy, no radar altimeter, 38' long, the difficult part of the mission was the landing...

 

I think that the short mission radius of the F-104 data.ini does limit the exposure to threats.

Short missions are safer than long mission, but it might be wrong during a campaign, during a declared conflict.

 

I wish I could do the same with another plane. But tonight F-104 rules!

[Lt. James Cater 62]

I was trying to figure out how to get a view of "the other side of the hill" when i remembered the ODS mod. Sure enough there was a MIG25RB and so i took it for a spin on the Range. I was massively impressed on my first flight. It went really high and fast and i kept thinking of the joys of flying this thing in a WOE campaign.

 

However, when i flew a mission reality quickly made itself apparent.

 

I plotted a direct course down into Saudi Arabia and were the results striking. I never even made it to the Kuwait border! This despite flying as high as 65,000ft. Everytime i was shot down by the same bunch of Hornets. The last time i actually decided to turn and run but took a wrong angle and it was over. It did take multiple firings on their part to get me though. One time they launched 9 AIM9Ms.

 

Later i'll try again taking a roundabout route and see what i can do.

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

:)

 

Man, it seems to me that you have taken the red pill...

 

Don't forget to tell us what you'll discover, I'd be happy to try it!

 

(Starfighter landing ain't a joke!!!)

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Guess that going roundabout is still a no/go.

 

Now i know why the F-15 is the uberfighter in these sims. On 4 missions i got shot down every time. Even when i reached 62,000ft i still got hacked out of the skies by F-15s that climbed up and nailed the MIG, twice via AIM9Ls! As a matter of fact i was detected and tracked almost from wheels up and even though i thought i could outrun them at altitude, as soon as i had to make a 90 degree turn that was all they needed to cut the corner and shoot.

 

Damn, i've flown the Eagle in campaign and scored well (most kills of any fighter model)but i didn't really realize just how formidable it is.

 

It really makes me feel a whole lot better flying a Recce Phantom. When all is said and done, i'll have a longer career in the Phantom than the Foxbat.

 

I'll keep trying with the MIG and see if i can come up with some good info.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Lt. James Cater