OT (WW2) The Great Escape

[Flyby PC 23]

Just a heads up for a forthcoming program in the UK. It's WW2 I'm afraid, so it is firmly 'OT', but I think it'll be of interest to most of us.

 

Monday 2nd Nov Channel 4, 9pm. The Great Escape - The Reckoning.

 

You may or may not know, but the famous film 'The Great Escape' is based on a true story. After the escape, 50 of the escapees were indeed shot / murdered by the Gestapo.

 

As I understand it, this program is the story of how the RAF tracked down those responsible after the war.

 

For those who don't get Channel 4, I think there's also a book about to come out - http://rafpolicehistory.blogspot.com/2009/03/raf-police-great-escape-murders.html

 

I have a dim recollection of reading something a few years ago that some of this was very cloak and dagger, (yes literally), because the post war 1948 Govt stopped these enquiries, effectively letting some of these men escape justice. If my memory is correct, some shadowy figures in the UK had other ideas...

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Thanks for the Headsup m8...I will have a watch of that

[Olham 164]

You may or may not know, but the famous film 'The Great Escape' is based on a true story.

After the escape, 50 of the escapees were indeed shot / murdered by the Gestapo.

As I understand it, this program is the story of how the RAF tracked down those responsible after the war.

 

Uhh! That's nasty! No, I didn't know that. I hope they got the bastards?

I only know the movie, and I love it. I can see it again and again every two years.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Olham

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

 

[/i]Uhh! That's nasty! No, I didn't know that. I hope they got the bastards?

I only know the movie, and I love it. I can see it again and again every two years.

 

Yep..Every bloody Christmas!...along with 'Oliver' and the Wizard of OZ

[Olham 164]

Hahaha!!! Here in Germany, we see your "Little Lord Fauntleroy" with Alec Guinness

every Christmas time! And for Sylvester eve, the 169th repeat of "Dinner for one"

by and with Freddie Frinton, an absolute must for many Germans. I read, that it wasn't

too successful in Great Britain, but here, people love that good old butler James, getting

more and more drunk throughout the "Dinner for One". Funny, isn't it?

 

Maybe that's because you have so many good comedy on TV. You Crumpets actually

brought humour here really - the Pythons among the first.

And I wish they had tried to translate Blackadder...

[Creaghorn 10]

in germany also every year around xmas about 5 times on different channels "the last unicorn".

[Flyby PC 23]

Don't think I've even seen The last Unicorn, Dinner for One, or Little Lord Fonteroy.

 

Going back to the Great Escape, it was based on Stalag Luft 111, but Steve McQueen and his motorbike was complete fiction - it was McQueen who wanted to do it and his bike was a British Triumph (650?) not built until the 60's. In fact there weren't even any Americans in the camp. (There had been, and some took part in the digging, but by the time of the escape they'd been moved to another camp. The prominance of Americans in the film is a sop to the American film makers. It's a bit like Saving Private Ryan. It was Brits and Canadians who had to hold off 2nd SS “Das Reich” Panzer Division in the weeks following D-Day, no Americans were anywhere near them. As for U-571 and it's Enigma Code, don't get me started.... I also believe the true story of the Memphis Belle was supposed to be a true story about a British Lanc, but nobody would fund it unless it was a B17 crew.

 

I'm not having a go at Americans in general, but it seems a little disingenuous considering the roasting they gave Montgomery beefing up his role and stealing their thunder after the Ardennes. It's not just an American phenomenon however. Growing up on War movies in the UK these last 44 years, you'd be forgiven for thinking the Eastern Front never existed.

 

However...

 

The unsuccessful attempt to steal a plane was true, but from a different escape, and I don't know about the forger going blind either. Might have an element of truth in it from somewhere.

 

There was also a lot of stuff smuggled in to the camp via books and parcels, but no reference was made to this because smuggling stuff in and out of prisons is OK if it's for a plucky POW, but not so clever if its for a criminal who's meant to be behind bars. I have also heard that some escapees objected to their secrets being exposed because it could jeapordize future escape plans. Careless talk costs lives and all that.

 

The socks full of sand for getting rid of tunnel debris were actually discovered by the Germans. In fact by watching guys drop the sand, the Germans saw which hut they were coming from and found one of the tunnels.

 

Like most 60's film of the war, 'true' storylines were often beefed up with other snippets of truth, or had events spanning many months compressed into weeks etc, so that the final film is indeed based on a true story, but it's actually a composite of many different storys. Escape from Colditz springs to mind. It's so unfair to national identities it makes my toes curl.

 

Only 3 made it to freedom from the great escape. 2 Norwegians and a Dutchman.

 

I'm not trying to be deliberately anally retentive, but I find the actual truth so much more interesting than the movies.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

It's true enough...Hollywood has played a large part in people's ignorance of historical facts.

Hell, it even made John Wayne out to be a War Hero...instead of a coward, who lied to get out of fighting in WW2...and whose film 'The Green Berets' was probably responsible for sending many Young American's to a gung-ho demise in the Jungles of South East Asia....but that's another story

[Rickitycrate 10]

Long story short, don't look to the movies to get your History. They may inform, be entertaining or serve the purpose of propaganda. Books are always a better source for accuracy but even then to be truely informed on any subject one needs to study a number of sources and viewpoints. If it weren't for some of the inferior movies some historical subjects might otherwise be unfamiliar to many of us. IMHO the Blue Max, a work of fiction, is more accurate than so many "based on a true story" movies.

[Olham 164]

The Bordeauxred Baron:

"Vell, Hollyvood iss Hollyvood! Ze whole worlt muszt know by now, zatt neizer der Kaiser

nor I are shpeakink in ziss strange Deunglish aczent, meine Herren!"

[Mr. Lucky 0]

I liked Chicken Run where they used many themes from The Great Escape. One chicken was in 'solitary' throwing a baseball against the wall.

 

BTW, the true Memphis Bell was a real story about a real B17 and her crew and was done during the war I believe. I met the pilot Colonel Morgan. The remake in the 80's? was supposed to be true, but the story wasn't factual.

 

Hollywood isn't the reason for peoples ignorance, it just feeds the reason, their own laziness. They'd rather be told what to do and think rather than seek out the truth for themselves. Rickety was spot on.

 

As much as I love you guys, it always strikes me funny how no one seems to understand the American soldier and his motivation. I remember it was during a visit to Australia that I finally ran into

someone who voiced appreciation for what we were doing in the Indian Ocean. Couldn't even get that in our own country.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Mr. Lucky

[Duce Lewis 3]

Long story short, don't look to the movies to get your History. They may inform, be entertaining or serve the purpose of propaganda. Books are always a better source for accuracy but even then to be truely informed on any subject one needs to study a number of sources and viewpoints. If it weren't for some of the inferior movies some historical subjects might otherwise be unfamiliar to many of us. IMHO the Blue Max, a work of fiction, is more accurate than so many "based on a true story" movies.

Quite true books are so much better

But that only sets you up for the big let down

Read a great book then the movie comes out and you axiously rush to see it ...

Bat 21 comes to mind

 

I've always loved Battle of Britain

Written by an RAF Pilot and a great flick too

[Flyby PC 23]

Quite true books are so much better

But that only sets you up for the big let down

Read a great book then the movie comes out and you axiously rush to see it ...

Bat 21 comes to mind

 

I've always loved Battle of Britain

Written by an RAF Pilot and a great flick too

 

 

I love the Battle of Britain too, my all time favourite film, with contributions from Adolph Galland too, and real aircraft too. Superb. But even so, for the record, Keith Park was a Kiwi, Sailor Mallon was South African, and Hugh Dowding was a Scot. My point is, it wouldn't have detracted from the film to reflect this, (especially given how they were treated in real life). But it was better for the box office to cram the film with stars, but to me, there's a little part of the story missing.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Dunno if it was just me...but the 109's didnt look like 109's though

[Mr. Lucky 0]

Dunno if it was just me...but the 109's didn't look like 109's though

 

Spanish Air Force ME109's with the engine mod. Same with the HE111's IRC. But nothing can beat the looks and lines of a Spitfire.

 

I've seen maybe 1 or 2 films that were true to the book or close to it. I never look forward to the film if I've read the book, I already know it'll be butchered so I'm jaded before even going in. The Sharpes' Rifles series was pretty close to the books, but still not quite. Master and Commander was VERY close even in dialogue, butit was a mixture of elements from several of O'Brians books. One thing that really frosts me (not aviation related) is when they make the rifles sound like little pop guns or popcorn, esp. black powder rifles.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Spanish Air Force ME109's with the engine mod. Same with the HE111's IRC. But nothing can beat the looks and lines of a Spitfire.

 

Ah!

 

I have another question re: Luftwaffe please chaps?

 

On some 1940's newsreel film..I have seen an HE111 with a totally different nose layout to the norm!...it is shown in a formation, dropping it's cargo, and is quite clearly a Heinkel...but with a modified nose cone (still glass...but not the same)

 

Any Ideas??

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I have found it!...must have been an early version (probably Spain again)

[Olham 164]

Widowmaker, the Spanish Me 109 had a different engine; a Hispano Suiza, I think.

that gives her a pretty different (and uglier) look.

If you watch the movie "Pearl Harbour", there is one short scene early on, a dogfight

of a Spitfire and a Messerschmidt. That is, I believe, computer-made, but phantastic!

 

I wish they'd redo "Battle of Britain", keeping the storyline, but with the right aircraft,

and the real amounts of them. It must look horrifying, to see hordes of hundreds of

bombers approaching. If you saw "Troja", you saw it can be done per computer - the

gigantic fleet at the beginning was the first time I saw, how big it really all was!

 

For the Heinkel, I would need the picture - don't know any special one.

[Olham 164]

Widow, perhaps it was the He 111 E - you'll find it here:

 

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Bilder/He111/He111E3-1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Bilderseiten/He111-R.htm&usg=__7odSjtmRL2rL6wJTZwRkEi-HiwI=&h=401&w=302&sz=30&hl=de&start=6&tbnid=53wWNMXv-lLP9M:&tbnh=124&tbnw=93&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHeinkel%2BHe%2B111%2BE%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Dde%26sa%3DG

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Yes..either 'B' or 'E'

[Flyby PC 23]

I'll need to check UKW, but I'm sure my DVD of the film came with extras, including a documentary about the filming. Been a while since I watched it, but I remember the German planes were mostly Spanish. For most of the time, the filmcrew only had 2 He111s, but sometimes 5 or 7 (can't remember), so you either see two or 7.

 

The other bit I remember was the sequence where the pilot bales out (a dummy naturally) and keeps falling because his parachute doesn't open. Very poigniant, but the truth of the matter was the parachute was supposed to work properly, and the poor chap who screwed up the very expensive shot was sacked, only for the footage to be some of the most intense 30 seconds of the film....

 

I'd forgotten about that disc, but I'll need to dig it out. Adolph Galland featured tall in it too.

 

@ Mr Lucky, I know the story of the Memphis Belle is true (give or take), but I heard when the Mem B film came out that the original plan was for a very similar story focussed on a Lancaster crew surviving to complete a similar tour of 30 or 60 ops. The producer, David Puttnam, wanted to make the film about a RAF Lancaster bomber, but no British studio had the money and no Hollywood studio had the interest until it was decided to update the original Memphis Belle film from 1944.

[Kingkat 1]

As I recall, all the Americans that had been held in Luft Stalag III were transferred BEFORE the actual escape attempt. However, Hollywood would never let FACTS get in the way of a good story!!!!!!

 

The British allies and their bretheren did make a great story and just half of it was told in the movie, The Great Escape. After the war many of those responsible for the murders of the prisoners were tracked down. A fantastic achievement all round. A documentary about Escapes of WW@ has been shown on the Discovery Channel, and one of the main escapees,Wally Floody is featured.

 

 

But, it is a great guy flick! No chicks................just great action, good friends, and ultimate sacrifice for each other. The music ain't bad either!!!!

[Mr. Lucky 0]

Would've liked to see it about the Lanc crew too. Do you know if it was a night or day crew?

The most poigniant part for me in Memphis Belle were the letters the PR officer had to read.

[Bullethead 12]

BTW, the true Memphis Bell was a real story about a real B17 and her crew and was done during the war I believe. I met the pilot Colonel Morgan. The remake in the 80's? was supposed to be true, but the story wasn't factual.

 

Hehehe, that recent abortion is a movie I love to hate. If I'd been directing it, it would have been all the same (out of Hollywood necessity) until the very end, when it would have had an ending like Das Boot.

 

I know it's painful to do, but please try to recall how this dog of a movie ended. The shot-up B-17 staggers in and lands back home. 100-octane aviation gasoline is pouring from innumerable flak and bullet holes, "self-sealing" be damned. And every crewman still able to stand, plus a platoon or 2 of ground personnel, all huddle up in or adjacent to this inflammable cascade and all its surrounding fumes, and LIGHT UP SMOKES!

 

And thus, the Das Boot ending . As the credits roll as an overlay atop the carnage, a few flame-enveloped figures stagger out of the huge fireball, run around for a bit, then fall, twitch a bit, and go still. And guess what? This would have been just as true to history as the rest of the movie. Shame they didn't do it that way

[Mr. Lucky 0]

I was referring to the movie made during the war. The new one had everything wrong except the name and model of the B17. The movies Hollywood put out are made for the ignorant masses and grossly irritate those of us with knowledge or experience. Like...how could a lower budget film like Kelly's Heros get Sherman tanks but a major epoch like Patton had to use modern M61 tanks? And notice how they pick on a theme that is spurious initially but they carry it through. The B17 at the beginning came in with one gear up and did burst into flames. Then at the end, the ground crewman says 'My God, they've got one gear down' like it means a crash is inevitable. Like Top Gun (don't get me started) fixating on flying through the jet wash.