OT (WW2) The Great Escape

[Duce Lewis 3]

Dunno if it was just me...but the 109's didnt look like 109's though

I believe the Spanish license built the Me109/He111

They purchased the Daimler Benz engines though

When the war ended and their supply ran out, they switched to Merlin engines

Ironic though, all the craft in BoB had the same powerplants

IIRC, they remained in the Spanish Air Force right into the 60's

 

I wish they'd redo "Battle of Britain", keeping the storyline, but with the right aircraft,

and the real amounts of them.

I'v always hoped they'd update the original film with CGI graphics

Yes, it was a great storyline and fine acting ...Taka Taka Taka Taka

[Flyby PC 23]

Watched the documentary. OK, but I wouldn't go hunting down the video. Not half as gripping or informative as I thought it would be.

 

I'm sure I read something years and years ago about small teams of brits who set out to avenge nazi injustices when the culprit was beyond the reach of normal means.

 

In my mind this was linked to Stalag Luft 111, but also to a British spy who was caught, tortured, and hung from a lampost with two parts of his anatomy removed (if you follow me), and left to die. I'm sure the Gestapo man escaped to South America, but later on got 'mugged' quite nastily in a back alley.

 

I only ever saw this reference once, years ago, and I've never seen any reference to it ever again. Kick myself that I cant remember more, but then again, maybe such things shouldn't be on the TV.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I'm afraid when the Pilot announced "We've done our job for Uncle Sam, and now we're flying for ourselves" I vomited both my Kidneys onto the Table through my nose!

[Mr. Lucky 0]

In retrospect, probably one of the best war movies I'd seen was The Best Days of Our Lives about a soldier, sailor and airman and how they had to adjust to life after the war. One was an officer/pilot who became a soda jerk, one was a sergeant that was a banker and the other was a young man that lost both his hands. I think it was made shortly after WWII. Unusual for that time.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

One of my favourite War Movies was the one where a US Marine and a Japanese Soldier are marooned on the same Island!...brilliant story (cant remember what it was called)

[Olham 164]

Mr. Lucky, to say something positive about the American soldiers: when I saw the Normandy landing scene

in "Saving Private Ryan" (and please don't come up with all your critics about that movie now again, everybody!),

I thought, my god, that's tough, to hold on to your mission and go through such a hell.

 

The Americans did a great deal of defending off and beating the Nazi regime, and it may not be so obvious for

you Americans and British to see - but they also released me and my generation from them.

They also released the Germany of the "normal people" from Hitler's terror.

And I say it loud and clear: I am grateful for that to those boys! Salut!

Edited November 3, 2009 by Olham

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I agree Olham...the fact of the matter is, that it was a team game...it was down to everyone involved...Lets not forget the Russian role too.

Mr Hitler (or rather his often Brilliant Commanders) could have done a considerably better job, had he/they not had to spread his/their forces over two fronts.

 

The question I always ask myself..Is whether an A-Bomb would have found itself falling onto Berlin, had the war in Europe dragged on any longer?

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Actually...doing some very quick research, it appears Germany was considered a target...but quickly removed as one

[Flyby PC 23]

I think the Battle of Britain is my favourite War film. All time.

 

Got a love/hate thing going on with 633 squadron films. Love the Mosquitos to bits, but the film itself is hard work. One of them is based on the Amiens prison raid, but it's so loosely based that it's relevance is almost incidental. It's one of those rare times when the truth is even more remarkable than the fiction.

 

The Longest Day is probably my second all time favourite, and I've no niggles about it at all. It has so much information cleverly condensed that the odd discrepancy doesn't spoil a thing. Works for me.

 

I'd like to see The Battle of Britain re-made with better special effects too, but I don't think it'll happen. It would take one helluva film to knock Battle of Britain off the top of my list.

 

I've never understood why they've never made a better Battle of the Bulge film. The true story has all the necessary ingredients for an absolutely brilliant film, no fiction required. Maybe the time is coming with CGI. Just hope they keep it simple, so somebody watching it in another 50 years knows exactly what it was all about. No frills, just inspiring American courage and determination while cut off and outgunned, pitted against the finest German armour of the whole war. Come on USA, get on with it! I'd be first in the queue to see a film like that.

 

And if it ever happens, and there's somebody in the film crew say's "Hey, I've thought of something to make the story more entertaining", take him out the back and shoot him. Twice.

 

 

 

[Bullethead 12]

My favorite war movies cut through the subsequent propaganda and false heroics to show things pretty much like they really were. Naturally, my list is short, and it includes a few things that might surprise you all....

 

#1: Ride with the Devil. Only a non-US stuido could have made this one.

 

#2. The Cruel Sea

#3. Saving Private Ryan. YES, I know it was just King Arthur's grail legend set in WW2, but all the details were spot-on, from the protagonists being sent and getting killed doing a silly-ass mission ordered by some paper-pusher back in the States right down to the way all the guys had the skin peeled off the backs of their hands assymetrically, which is diagnostic of hitting the deck while holding a rifle. You rate combat pay just for seeing that movie. It gave me flashbacks the whole time and for a while after. When I saw it the 1st time in the theater, not 1 swinging Richard got up until after the credits were long over.

 

#4. Das Boot. From what I gather, that was pretty much how it was. You can quibble about the ending, but wars ARE tragedies, so having the classic ending of a tragic play, with all the characters piled up dead on the stage, is quite fitting. Besides, it's Germanic, and all Germanic heroes are supposed to die at the end of their sagas. How else do they get to Valhalla? You didn't see Beowulf living to a ripe old age, did you?

 

I like a bunch of other war movies, but they either burden the real history with the love interests or whatever of their fictional main characters, or are just pure hogwash (but still good entertainment). This is a long list, however, so I'll not type it.

 

 

 

 

[Olham 164]

I think, more than 70 % of the German U-Bootflotte died at sea.

So the ending of "das Boot" was almost friendly - they died on land.

A film, that really drags me each time again into the claustrophobic craze

of submarine warfare and war in general like only few others.

 

The first parts of "Band of Brothers" (first encounter with German tanks) was also made realistic.

[Bullethead 12]

I think, more than 70 % of the German U-Bootflotte died at sea.

So the ending of "das Boot" was almost friendly - they died on land.

A film, that really drags me each time again into the claustrophobic craze

of submarine warfare and war in general like only few others.

 

I think it was closer to 80% than 70%. Whatever, the WW2 U-boats definitely had by far the highest casualty (and highest KIA/MIA to WIA) ratios of any service that wasn't deliberately suicidal. Probably, when you consider all the folks in the kamikaze corps who never flew due to the A-bombs, the U-boat men had it even worse than official suicide units. The Soviet penal battalions seem to have come close, but I don't think they surpassed either the U-boats or the kamikazes.

 

I think they should sell a combo pack of Das Boot and The Cruel Sea. Both sides of the coin, both sides in Hell.

 

The first parts of "Band of Brothers" (first encounter with German tanks) was also made realistic.

 

Yup, Band of Brothers is also good and realistic. I just don't put it on my list because I don't like the focus on "elite" units, to the extent that they were the only guys who had that sort of esprit de corps or faced such horrific situations. Not to disparage the achievements of the airborne troops, mind you, but I'd rather be dumped behind the lines with just light weapons and mucho disorganization than conduct a frontal assault through hedgerows or in the Huertgen Forest, or fight at Stalingrad or Okinawa on either side.

[Duce Lewis 3]

I'd like to see The Battle of Britain re-made with better special effects too, but I don't think it'll happen. It would take one helluva film to knock Battle of Britain off the top of my list.

I agree, there's just not the public call for it

Maybe some cult group could attempt it

Some add-on that would require you to buy the original movie and patch the CGI in

Not much chance of that either but it'd be nice

 

The first parts of "Band of Brothers" (first encounter with German tanks) was also made realistic.

I like the 2nd tank engagement in the Op. Market Garden episode too

It really highlighted the Tiger's total dominance over the Sherman

Gave a sense of how scary it must have been to go up against that tank when your armor is exploding around you

 

Yup, Band of Brothers is also good and realistic. I just don't put it on my list because I don't like the focus on "elite" units, to the extent that they were the only guys who had that sort of esprit de corps or faced such horrific situations. Not to disparage the achievements of the airborne troops, mind you, but I'd rather be dumped behind the lines with just light weapons and mucho disorganization than conduct a frontal assault through hedgerows or in the Huertgen Forest, or fight at Stalingrad or Okinawa on either side.

The only reaon they were in an elite unit is because they volunteered for it

They had to know they were going to be in the thick of it and would suffer heavy casualties

I think they were chosen because their unit participated in most (if not all) signifanct engagements in the European Theathre

 

That being said, I'd really like to see a similarly well made series on Guadalcanal

Those Marines made the 1st counter-attack against the Japanese even though they were under equiped from the start

IIRC they had WWI era Springfield rifles etc, the navy took several beatings off-shore and abandoned them

Yet they fought on against some of the most savage frontal assaults ...for 11 months!!!

I think there was a 1950's movie, but a well made, updated version would be nice

 

And all traces of that horrible "The Bridge over the River Kwai" should be conviscated and destroyed

Portaying an Officer who fought for his troops well being as a colloborator is traitorous

[Flyby PC 23]

 

 

The only reaon they were in an elite unit is because they volunteered for it

 

 

Hmmm, that must be an American phenomenon.

 

I was once a TA Para, so rubbed shoulders with regular Paras and non para Regiments. I wouldn't have called the TA Para elite, but the regulars were a different story. There's specialisation off course, REME are engineers, signals, artillery and such like, but that's not the same thing as elite. If you're ever in fight against elite troops, you're in trouble.

 

They are fitter, they are tuned for combat, and switched on all the time. They are better shots, they will work together as a team instinctively, and will do whatever it takes to get the job done. They will be better led too. Many elite units are very dissmissive of lesser regiments, but this isn't an ego thing, they simply are superior fighting troops with absolute conviction they would destroy you in battle. Don't get the hump about it, they almost certainly would. They will go further, faster and carry more, with less rest or food, but their already higher than normal combat effectiveness will scarely diminish. It's no accident that 2 Para were first to relieve Port Stanley in the Falklands, having tabbed cross country from the earlier combat at Goose Green. (TAB is Tactical Advance to Battle). Contrast this with the Welsh Guards who had to be brought up in support by ship because they couldn't keep up, but remained on board because disembarkation required them to carry their kit ashore while two Majors argued the toss, which left their ships sitting ducks for the first light air attack which sunk the Sir Galahad. That is the difference between elite, and one click off.

 

When you exit your aircraft jumping into a combat zone, statistically you have seven minutes to live. That's fine, because you only have 3 minutes of ammunition. Your mission is typically to hold strategic objectives behind enemy lines against everything that may be thrown at you from armour to air assault, and you pretty much have to do it with what you can carry on your back, while placing all of your faith in the normal army to fight through to relieve you. You don't have your ticket home, you start out 'surrounded'.

 

You do volunteer, because you get the jobs nobody could otherwise order you to do.

 

I respect elite troops, frankly because they scare me.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

It's sheer weight of numbers that would scare me!

Elite forces aren't much use against millions of Chinese conscripts

[Olham 164]

Duce Lewis: I like the 2nd tank engagement in the Op. Market Garden episode too

It really highlighted the Tiger's total dominance over the Sherman

Gave a sense of how scary it must have been to go up against that tank when your armor is exploding around you

 

Here is a YouTube video about the dominance of the Tiger - it can scare the sh*t out of you to imagine you

had to fight them. At the end it also shows, how the RAF destroyed many with rockets and carpet bombing.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2XZCJUfeb0&feature=related

[Wels 2]

Hello,

 

like Olham (and many others here) i am also thankful to the US to help free the population of the dictatorship, and spare the world from something worse to happen. This time, it was worth it. And they did not stop there, but supported Berlin with the airlift, against being sacked by the Soviet Union, and also helped building up the economy again. England also helped directly after the war, and we will also never forget this.

 

Also let us not forget what General McArthur did with Japan, right after the war being won. You can say what you want about what he did and decided later, but he was a great man in the true sense of the word.

 

re the escape, i thought that while prisoners were "allowed to be shot on the run", it was surely forbidden to kill them after catching them by international law. Very bad, but that's what Germany was all about then. Some isolated incidents and events of correct or even forgiving behaviour sometimes blur what happened in 99 percent of the time.

 

Gretings,

Catfish

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

We should'nt forget either Wels, that atrocities were not exclusive to Germany!...The Allies commited atrocities too (but we will never hear about those)

 

As posted by myself in the past, my Dad was an SOE agent during the war, and he witnessed atrocities commited by Allied Interogators too.

 

I happen to know, from his accounts, that German POW's were tortured for information, and then shot, buried and forgotten by UK Intelligence forces throughout 1941 - 1945...he witnessed this on at least two occasions.

[Olham 164]

Yes,there isn't simply a 'good side' and a 'bad side' - the bad people are everywhere.

And hopefully always some good men - on either side - too.

 

To fight a war in a human way is almost a paradox.

[Slartibartfast 153]

As someone once said "War is Hell"

 

On the otherside of the coin the Great Escape is a great movie and I love the music... yeah its on my MP-3 player...

[sittingbison 0]

One of my favourite War Movies was the one where a US Marine and a Japanese Soldier are marooned on the same Island!...brilliant story (cant remember what it was called)

 

Hell in the Pacific with Lee Marvin and Toshiro Mifune

[sittingbison 0]

That being said, I'd really like to see a similarly well made series on Guadalcanal

 

You are in luck, the same production team including Spielberg and Hanks has been making "The Pacific" for the past three years, its based on two marine memoirs (Helmet for my Pillow and With the Old Breed by Eugene Sledge and Robert Leckie). Will be out early next year.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pacific_%28miniseries%29

[sittingbison 0]

Hi Flyby glad to see you again I was sad to see you leave simouthouse last year. I thought one of the successful escapers was an Aussie.

 

BTW I can recall seeing a film a few years back that was a "sequel" to TGE, basically it showed some soldiers or agents going back into Germany, hunting down the Gestapo responsible and capping them. I think it was because a relative of Churchill (incognito) was in the escape and cant remember if he was on executed or one of the lucky ones. It had to be made much later as there was one of those time limit thingies about secrets placed on the operation after the war.

 

cheers

bison

 

BTWx2 - I completely agree with your film selections. Always loved the end of TLD with wounded pilot Richard Burtons soliloquay and the German with boots on back to front

[Flyby PC 23]

Good to see you again Sittingbison.

 

Yes, have to confess I let a few things at the SO get under my skin. Seems a long time ago now.

 

Once all that experience and database was lost, I never felt the same about the place. Missed a few old faces, but the time was right to move on. My best contribution to the forum was trying to help folk get more out their CFS3. I didn't know all the answers, but I did know where to find the most helpful threads. Once all that background info had been dumped in the way it was, it felt like there was nothing I could contribute anymore. I was also just a wee bit annoyed about it all. Good time to leave. Still, that's old news now.

 

Still flying CFS3? I do from time to time, but I have to admit I dumped my ETO in disgust, but there were some cracking advances last time I looked. Pat & Jeffs airfields were a big plus, and Viso's tanks and stuff were straight out the top drawer, excellent little critters.

 

Hmmm, you've got me thinking now....that Churchill relative thing is ringing a bell, but it's still very faint. Won't sleep now til I remember.... Did your program by any chance have an interview with a soldier type in a black beret saying he was part of a 4 man hit squad? He talked about his weapons, and that we'd have to take his word for it because we'd never ever see any records to confirm it. I'm sure I didn't imagine it, but it was a long time ago, - and I mean 'black and white TV' ago.

[sittingbison 0]

Hmmm, you've got me thinking now....that Churchill relative thing is ringing a bell, but it's still very faint. Won't sleep now til I remember.... Did your program by any chance have an interview with a soldier type in a black beret saying he was part of a 4 man hit squad? He talked about his weapons, and that we'd have to take his word for it because we'd never ever see any records to confirm it. I'm sure I didn't imagine it, but it was a long time ago, - and I mean 'black and white TV' ago.

 

Substantial research (I googled it last night) reveals it was a made for TV movie 1988 called "The Great Escape II: The Untold Story" with Christopher Reeves and Judd Hirsch. And would you believe it Donald Pleasance playing the evil gestapo what a hoot haha.

 

I think the black beret you are thinking of was from the excellent late 70's series about Belgian resistance "ello ello" oops I mean "SECRET ARMY".

 

BTW fount of all knowledge google also list NO Australian successfully escaping. Hmmmm. So much for James Coburn then.