Too many questions

[Erwin_Hans 6]

I'm trying update some MiG-21s,but I met these problems....

 

I know that

 

Homeuse MiG-21PF/PFS have RP-21

 

Homeuse MiG-21PFM have RP-21M

 

Homeuse MiG-21S have RP-22S

 

Homeuse MiG-21SM have RP-22SM

 

Homeuse MiG-21Bis have RP-22SM?

 

Homeuse MiG-21MF have RP-22S(or no homeused MiG-21MF?)

 

But how about export versions?

 

Czechoslovakian said:

 

MiG-21MF have RP-21MA

 

MiG-21PFM have RP-21M

 

MiG-21PF have RP-21

 

LSK said:

 

MiG-21Bis have RP-22SMA

 

MiG-21MF have RP-21MA

 

MiG-21PFM have RP-21MA Or RP-21?

 

Indian

 

Type-96 have RP-21ML?

 

MiG-21FL have RP-21ML?

 

So

 

How about Egypt MiG-21MF?

 

And how about MiG-21MF-75?

 

And how about closer WP country like Yugoslave?

[Guest rscsjsuso5]

hope this helps as it might not answer all of your questioned parts on mig radrs type/nation but might add some more to your list link http://yumodelclub.tripod.com/yugoslav_air_force/mig21/mig21var.htm

 

enjoy

[+Gepard 11,323]

The MiG-21MF was the export version of the MiG-21SM. AFAIK the soviets had no MF in their inventory. The soviet piloted Mig-21MF in Egypt 1970 had also only export avionics, also no RP-22.

The MiG-21MF-75 was a LSK designation. The in 1975 delivered MF had a little bit different equipment and an other camo (lightblue) than the older ones. This birds were originaly intended for Cuba, not for the GDR, thatswhy it was also called "die Kuba Variante"

[+lindr2 19]

so easy...

 

MiG-21P -> CD-30T (same as Su-9)

 

MiG-21PF -> RP-21

 

MiG-21PF EXPORT, MiG-21L (Type 76) -> R-1L (Export version CD-30T, NOT RP-21!)

 

MiG-21FL (Type 77) -> R-2L (Export version RP-21!)

 

MiG-21PFM (Type 94) -> CD-30TP (RP-21M)

 

MiG-21S (Type 95) -> RP-22S (Sapfire-21)

 

MiG-21SM (Type 95M) -> RP-22S (Sapfire-21)

 

MiG-21M (Type 96) -> RP-21MA (Export version RP-21)

 

MiG-21MF (Type 96F) -> RP-22S (Sapfire-21)

 

MiG-21MT (Type 96T) -> RP-21MA (Export version RP-21)

 

MiG-21SMT,ST (Type 50) -> RP-22S (Sapfire-21)

 

MiG-21Bis (Type 75,75A,75B) -> RP-22S (Sapfire-21)

 

CD-30T ( Su-9 Cam.)

 

[Erwin_Hans 6]

so easy...

 

MiG-21P -> CD-30T (same as Su-9)

 

MiG-21PF -> RP-21

 

MiG-21PF EXPORT, MiG-21L (Type 76) -> R-1L (Export version CD-30T, NOT RP-21!)

 

MiG-21FL (Type 77) -> R-2L (Export version RP-21!)

 

MiG-21PFM (Type 94) -> CD-30TP (RP-21M)

 

MiG-21S (Type 95) -> RP-22S (Sapfire-21)

 

MiG-21SM (Type 95M) -> RP-22S (Sapfire-21)

 

MiG-21M (Type 96) -> RP-21MA (Export version RP-21)

 

MiG-21MF (Type 96F) -> RP-22S (Sapfire-21)

 

MiG-21MT (Type 96T) -> RP-21MA (Export version RP-21)

 

MiG-21SMT,ST (Type 50) -> RP-22S (Sapfire-21)

 

MiG-21Bis (Type 75,75A,75B) -> RP-22S (Sapfire-21)

 

CD-30T ( Su-9 Cam.)

 

 

 

Thanks,really good infos!

 

But there are still something strange.

 

I checked some sources:

 

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=110.0

 

The polish sources is from a orgazined russian site.So,this is not right.

 

(http://aerospace.boopidoo.com/philez/Su-15TM%20PICTURES%20&%20DOCS/Overscan's%20guide%20to%20Russian%20Military%20Avionics.htm)

 

But the LSK manull shows they use RP-21 till MiG-21Bis.And SF2 said so...(looks like Serbian have RP-21,too)

 

And we know MiG-21MT could be based on MiG-21MF,and MiG-21MT have RP-21MA.

 

So why MiG-21MF have better RP-22S?

 

And some form WP country shows that they have RP-21MA in their MiG-21MFs...

 

And in (http://aerospace.boopidoo.com/philez/Su-15TM%20PICTURES%20&%20DOCS/Overscan's%20guide%20to%20Russian%20Military%20Avionics.htm)

 

Shows there are also RP-21ML exported...

 

And IIRC,airwar.ru haven't say that MiG-21MF have radar update from MiG-21M

 

I read that MiG-21MF-75(new build in 1975) could have RP-22S/SMA.

 

So maybe there are many series for MiG-21MF

 

Maybe earlier version with RP-21MA and later version with RP-22S ?

[+lindr2 19]

right MiG-21Bis is not one but 3 planes

 

1) Type 75 for USSR RP-22S

 

2) Type 75A for WP

 

3) Type 75B for others

 

russian sources say,what late export version could have PR-22.

 

MF - right RP-21MA, some un-exported MF used in VVS with RP-22S

 

MiG-21MT based on MiG-21M 15 planes 10 for export, 5 for VVS

 

Mig-21 production

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2009 by lindr2

[Erwin_Hans 6]

right MiG-21Bis is not one but 3 planes

 

1) Type 75 for USSR RP-22S

 

2) Type 75A for WP

 

3) Type 75B for others

 

russian sources say,what late export version could have PR-22.

 

MF - right RP-21MA, some un-exported MF used in VVS with RP-22S

 

MiG-21MT based on MiG-21M 15 planes 10 for export, 5 for VVS

 

Mig-21 production

 

 

 

 

 

No MiG-21MF in 1970??

 

I read 135th IAP ( to Egypt)have 40 MiG-21MF,or they are indeed MiG-21S/SM/M?

[+lindr2 19]

No MiG-21MF in 1970??

 

I read 135th IAP ( to Egypt)have 40 MiG-21MF,or they are indeed MiG-21S/SM/M?

 

sorry, last charts about Gorky city factory, mig-21mf also producted in 'Znamya truda' factory (factory N 30).

 

MiG-21M -195 planes (for Egypt 61) in 1968-69 (9+195) for Bulgaria, DDR, Egypt, Syria, Poland, Romania, CzSSR, Yugoslavia

 

MiG-21MF 96 planes in 1969 for Egypt only.

 

total production: 10158 planes

 

Factory N 21 (Gorky) - 5532 MiG-21 (include 1812 for export)

 

Factory N 30 (Moskva) - 3203 MiG-21

 

Factory N 31 (Tbilisi) - 1677 MiG-21 (17 fighters , others U,US,UM)

[+Gepard 11,323]

The MT, was'nt it the export version of the SMT which nobody wanted to buy?

[+lindr2 19]

The MT, was'nt it the export version of the SMT which nobody wanted to buy?

 

...no, just M with additional fuel. 10 planes were sold... from 15.

 

soviet SMT have been converted to ST (reduced fuel capacity)

 

SMT ~ 3250Lt MT,ST ~ 2950Lt

Edited December 11, 2009 by lindr2

[Erwin_Hans 6]

sorry, last charts about Gorky city factory, mig-21mf also producted in 'Znamya truda' factory (factory N 30).

 

MiG-21M -195 planes (for Egypt 61) in 1968-69 (9+195) for Bulgaria, DDR, Egypt, Syria, Poland, Romania, CzSSR, Yugoslavia

 

MiG-21MF 96 planes in 1969 for Egypt only.

 

total production: 10158 planes

 

Factory N 21 (Gorky) - 5532 MiG-21 (include 1812 for export)

 

Factory N 30 (Moskva) - 3203 MiG-21

 

Factory N 31 (Tbilisi) - 1677 MiG-21 (17 fighters , others U,US,UM)

 

Hmmmm....

 

AFAIK,there could be 3 versions MiG-21MF

 

1st version ASP-PF-21 and RP-21MA Radar can use R-3S for Egypt in 1970

2nd version ASP-PFD and RP-21MA Radar can use R-3S/R-60/R-13M? for WP countries (at least for CSSR) 1970-1974

3rd version ASP-PFD and RP-22S(SM/A) radar can use R-3S/R-60/R-13M and R-3R for WP country (at least LSK got) 1975 this is MiG-21MF-75

 

Check the "MiG-21MF_Caslav.avi" video you send me,you will find the MiG-21MF have ASP-PFD and RP-21 Radar and R-60 missile.That's strange...

 

And some source said some MiG-21M have RP-21MA was updated with R-13-300 and later RP-22 radar in CSSR and called MiG-21MA..

 

 

ASP-PFD? IIRC...

 

And some screenshoots

Edited December 13, 2009 by Erwin_Hans

[+lindr2 19]

No you can't determinate AP be scr-shot, i read mig-23ub, it say ASP-PFD can use different types on gunsight...

 

 

 

[Erwin_Hans 6]

No you can't determinate AP be scr-shot, i read mig-23ub, it say ASP-PFD can use different types on gunsight...

 

Good pics..

 

How about ASP-PF-21?

[+lindr2 19]

Good pics..

 

How about ASP-PF-21?

 

maybe later... i found some interesting info in Type-96A SERVICE MANUAL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

whole PDF. 43MB http://ul9.rapidshare.de/cgi-bin/upload.cgi?rsuploadid=147518003742524469

[Erwin_Hans 6]

maybe later... i found some interesting info in Type-96A SERVICE MANUAL

 

whole PDF. 43MB http://ul9.rapidshar...518003742524469

 

 

Really good stuff...

 

But link doesn't work..

 

Or PM me?

 

--------------

 

Sorry,PM box was full. Now it is OK.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Erwin_Hans

[+lindr2 19]

Really good stuff...

 

But link doesn't work..

 

Or PM me?

 

http://rapidshare.de/files/48829230/_______________96_____.pdf.html

 

or

 

http://rapidshare.com/files/320274096/SM_Type-96A.pdf

 

http://depositfiles.com/files/h7w0ed04d

 

http://www.filefactory.com/file/a10191f/n/SM_Type-96A.pdf

 

http://ifolder.ru/15451618

 

http://www.onlinedisk.ru/file/292210/

[+lindr2 19]

type 69 (mig-21um) service manual

http://rapidshare.com/files/320285137/________________________69.________________________________________.____________4.__________________

 

[Vigilant 1]

 

Check the "MiG-21MF_Caslav.avi" video you send me,you will find the MiG-21MF have ASP-PFD and RP-21 Radar and R-60 missile.That's strange...

 

And some source said some MiG-21M have RP-21MA was updated with R-13-300 and later RP-22 radar in CSSR and called MiG-21MA..

 

 

What the Czechoslovak Peoples Army (and later the Czech Army) called MiG-21MF were 4 different types of aircraft. The initial batch were in fact MiG-21M model A - Izdělije 96A - (localy known as MiG-21MA). They were refited to MF standard during overhauls (after about 1976 they could be identified only by the smaller airbrakes). Installed radar was RP-21MA, intialy with R-11F2S-300 engines, replace by R-13F-300 during overhauls (in most planes). I haven't found evidence of radar update. Only that about 4 aircraft were modified to carry a SPS-141 derived ECM/Decoy disperser pod on centerline station. Majority of remaining aircraft were "standard" MFs - Izdělije 96F. In 1978 the last batch was delivered. These aircraft were somewhere between "pure" MF and bis variants. The differences were in different canopy periscope, radio, fuel system and a distinctive grey camouflage scheme (so they were localy known as "šedivky" - probably "greys" in English). Radar was probably the same as on previous versions. The integration of R-60M was included in the MiG-21MFN upgrade carried in 1999. 10 aircraft were modifed with new radar altimeters, IFF systems and radios to make them compatible with NATO air defence system. After this upgrade the R-60M was also integrated into remaining active MF's(again about 10 planes).

[Erwin_Hans 6]

What the Czechoslovak Peoples Army (and later the Czech Army) called MiG-21MF were 4 different types of aircraft. The initial batch were in fact MiG-21M model A - Izdělije 96A - (localy known as MiG-21MA). They were refited to MF standard during overhauls (after about 1976 they could be identified only by the smaller airbrakes). Installed radar was RP-21MA, intialy with R-11F2S-300 engines, replace by R-13F-300 during overhauls (in most planes). I haven't found evidence of radar update. Only that about 4 aircraft were modified to carry a SPS-141 derived ECM/Decoy disperser pod on centerline station. Majority of remaining aircraft were "standard" MFs - Izdělije 96F. In 1978 the last batch was delivered. These aircraft were somewhere between "pure" MF and bis variants. The differences were in different canopy periscope, radio, fuel system and a distinctive grey camouflage scheme (so they were localy known as "šedivky" - probably "greys" in English). Radar was probably the same as on previous versions. The integration of R-60M was included in the MiG-21MFN upgrade carried in 1999. 10 aircraft were modifed with new radar altimeters, IFF systems and radios to make them compatible with NATO air defence system. After this upgrade the R-60M was also integrated into remaining active MF's(again about 10 planes).

 

 

Thanks,Vigilant...

 

Now we know Czech have:

 

MiG-21MF

MiG-21MA

MiG-21MF(updated from MiG-21MA)

MiG-21MFN

 

And how about MiG-21MF-75?

 

And you said R-60M was fitted in 1999,but how about R-60?

[Vigilant 1]

I made a small mistake. The last batch was not delivered in 1978, but in 1975. So the greys can be MF-75s. But I am mot familiar with this designation, so I don't know what were the differences. I've looked up some information on Czech 21 and here it is.

In total CSLA(Česoslovenská Lidová Armáda - Czechsolvak Peoples Army) used foloving MiG-21 variants:

MiG-21F-13: few delivered from Soviet Union in 1962 for military trials and aditional as kits to help start local licence production. Localy build aircraft differed by having the rear canopy made of metal rather then plexiglass. Initial deliveries to operational units in 1963, but real reequipment started in 1964. Production ended in 1972 with about 200 aircraft build. About 30 were delivered to Egypt in 1969. Other 12 (taken from active units) were transfered to Syria following the Yom Kippur War. The radarless F-13 served as fighters up to early 70's. After that they were used primarily to train new pilot in MiG-21 flying and weapons delivery. Most fighter regiments had a F-13 squadron for that purpose. Also many F-13 were modified to carry daytime photoreconnaisance pods on wing stations, giving the type a secondary reconnaisance capability. Retired in mid to late 80's.

MiG-21PF: gunless interceptor armed with R-3S or RS-2US missiles (RS-2US was used in poor weather when the R-3S seeker may not lock). Not exceptionaly liked because of poor armament (only 2 missiles) and very high landing speed. 40 aircaft delivered in 1964-65 and spread among fighter regiments. Retirement started in 1989 and quickly completed after the revolution.

MiG-21PFM: although the version in game has the GP-9 gunpod only some planes had the necessary wiring. Also in it's role as interceptor the absence of centerline fuel tank cut into the already limited fuel capacity. I 've see exactly one picture of Czech PFM with the gunpod, so make your own conclusions. The blown flaps installed on this version helped decrease the landing speed, but there were some incidents when pilot set engine to idle during langing and the resulting loss of lift lead to a crash. 50 aircraft delivered in 1966-68. Service similar to PF. Retired in 1991.

MiG-21R: replaced MiG-15R in tactical reconaissance role. 25 aircraft delivered in 1969-72. Served with 47th reconnaissance regiment. Retired in 1992 with few fometimes flying into 1995. Although it had similar radar and weapons as PFM it was seldom used as interceptor (probably only during annual pilot certification).

MiG-21MA: as written earlier. They were refered to only as MA, regardless of upgrade status, so calling it MA (late) is probably more appropriate than MF(from MA). 24 aircraft delivered in 1969-70. upgrades to "late" standard carried after 600 flying hours or 6 years, so by 1976 all were upgraded. Almost all were transfered to Slovak Air force in 1993 and retired in 1997.

MiG-21MF: 102 aircraft delivered in 1971-75. Served with fighter regiments and also replaced MiG-15SB in the 6th fighter-bomber regiment. Last aircraft retired from Czech airforce in 2005.

 

The weapons used are a wery difficult question because many sources contradict themselves. From what i've found it seems that all 21s were armed with R-3S missiles. These were replaced during the 80's with R-13M (though this seems really late). First usage of R-13M in CSLA, known to me, is on MiG-23MF starting in 1978. The RS-2US was sometimes used on PF/PFM and MF/MA usualy carried combination of 2xR-3S and 2x RS-2US. I have no idea for how long it was so (as RS-2US was pretty obsolete at this time and the actual rounds were also getting old). With the R-60 family it is even more difficult. They were not delivered with MiG-23MF/BNs in 1978. Soviets even stated, that MiG-23 cannot carry the R-60. That it actually can be done was discovered during introduction of MiG-23ML in 1982 (probably an advisor was not briefed about this particular secret..). Also at that time CSLA introduced many new types (all in small numbers) - MiG-23ML, Su-22, Su-25 so I don't know with what type the R-60 was introduced. It was probably with 23ML, but I can not prove that. And I have no idea what actual version of R-60 was used. I don't think that any Czech 21 were modified to carry R-60 before the 1999 upgrade. Among other things CSAL was not very fond of "upgrading" stuff and it is also questionable if they felt any need for such undertaking during the 80's. Need to maintain large numbers of obsolete and old/worn weapons during the 80's - T-55s, early 21s, Su-7 and need to purchase new ones also limited funding for any upgrades. Total disregard of defence spending during the 90's also didn't afford much room for any upgrades (and on a type that was at the end of its service life anyway).