VLaunched missiles frequently fail...

[Guest HoneyFox]

i have some problems about the SA-10 SAM.

 

when the radar tracks a target, one of the launchers launches a missile to attack the intruder.

 

but the missile often fails to turn to the target. instead, it places its target at its 3/9 clock, and flies around the target. (the radius of the trajectory is the distance from the missile to the target) and finally goes into the mud.

 

it works fine rarely. and in this case, it can successfully turn to the target with a "lead" trajectory and often destroys the target at last. but only less than 25% of missiles will works...

 

 

[+EricJ 4,246]

As far as in SF2? I've noticed it's for some reason trying to do the same, but methinks I know why. Open the missile in the Weapons Editor, and click on "Terminal Guidance" and "Target Memory". I noticed that when AI fires AIM-120s, and me, the weapons with this not checked tend to self-destruct at any nuance of enemy fighter movement (if it farts, turns, takes a smoke break, etc.). I can't test the theory right now but my AIM-120Ds are solid killas with AI use, so I've started to mod some missiles that way. It should alleviate the problem, hopefully...

[Fubar512 1,350]

Hmmmm....I've been shot down at 40+ nm range by an SA-10. Also, the Arleigh Burke model I'm working (which sports 90 VLS deployed SM-2 missiles), like has no issues defending itself quite effectively.

 

Given that I've just installed the Dec 09 patch, and have not had the time to thoroughly test most of my mods, I cannot say exactly which parameters one should change and/or add to ensure that said models behave in a realistic manner.

[Guest HoneyFox]

Open the missile in the Weapons Editor, and click on "Terminal Guidance" and "Target Memory". I noticed that when AI fires AIM-120s, and me, the weapons with this not checked tend to self-destruct at any nuance of enemy fighter movement (if it farts, turns, takes a smoke break, etc.). I can't test the theory right now but my AIM-120Ds are solid killas with AI use, so I've started to mod some missiles that way. It should alleviate the problem, hopefully...

 

My SA-10 already has Terminal Guidance + Target Memory. with high accuracy and lock on chance, and has a seeker FOV of 180 degrees + 80 degrees of gimble limits. but the missile just be so easy to fail to get into the right direction...

 

 

[Guest HoneyFox]

Hmmmm....I've been shot down at 40+ nm range by an SA-10. Also, the Arleigh Burke model I'm working (which sports 90 VLS deployed SM-2 missiles), like has no issues defending itself quite effectively.

 

Given that I've just installed the Dec 09 patch, and have not had the time to thoroughly test most of my mods, I cannot say exactly which parameters one should change and/or add to ensure that said models behave in a realistic manner.

well, some parameters may cause this strange problem...

 

i didn't installed that Dec 09 patch. but i really doubt if TK has fix any problem concerning guidance laws of lead trajectory in that patch. and so i think the problem may remain even if i install the patch.

 

yes, i've also been shot down far away by sa-10. but i just cannot stand that several missiles are just flying around me and their trails are all over the sky... and they seem to unable to turn ( in the first frame, the missile turns to me for about 1 or 2 degrees, and in the next frame, it turns to the opposite direction for about 1 degrees or so) so the missile looks trembling and vibrating in a small amplitude and this looks quite weird...

 

 

[Fubar512 1,350]

 

yes, i've also been shot down far away by sa-10. but i just cannot stand that several missiles are just flying around me and their trails are all over the sky... and they seem to unable to turn ( in the first frame, the missile turns to me for about 1 or 2 degrees, and in the next frame, it turns to the opposite direction for about 1 degrees or so) so the missile looks trembling and vibrating in a small amplitude and this looks quite weird...

 

what you're describing (the spiraling) is realistic behavior for modern, highly maneuverable SAMs. Even SAMs as old as the SA-3 leave a corkscrewing trail as they fly to their targets (as do AAMs).

 

[Guest HoneyFox]

what you're describing (the spiraling) is realistic behavior for modern, highly maneuverable SAMs. Even SAMs as old as the SA-3 leave a corkscrewing trail as they fly to their targets (as do AAMs).

 

Looks like you didnt catch me.

I mean that those SAMs flying around the target, keeping distance from their targets but not closing on them. if the missile is 40km from its target when it launches, it will keep the distance at nearly 40km proximately always. and will never be able to get close to the targets.

Edited December 24, 2009 by HoneyFox

[Fubar512 1,350]

Looks like you didnt catch me.

I mean that those SAMs flying around the target, keeping distance from their targets but not closing on them. if the missile is 40km from its target when it launches, it will keep the distance at nearly 40km proximately always. and will never be able to get close to the targets.

 

No, looks like you did not describe it properly.

 

And I quote: "i've also been shot down far away by sa-10. but i just cannot stand that several missiles are just flying around me and their trails are all over the sky... and they seem to unable to turn ( in the first frame, the missile turns to me for about 1 or 2 degrees, and in the next frame, it turns to the opposite direction for about 1 degrees or so) so the missile looks trembling and vibrating in a small amplitude and this looks quite weird..."

 

Sounds like spiraling to me....

 

 

 

I've seen every type of SAM available for this series hit their targets. And that means SA-2s,3s,5s,6s,7s,8s,9s,10s,11s,13s,18s,Nikes, Hawks, Chaparrals, Terriers, etc, etc, etc. And, in game, they usually exceed real life launch-to-intercept ratios by a significant margin. It took something on the order of 110 SA-2 launches to knock down one aircraft during the last full year of the Vietnam war. Even during the height of the Yom Kippur war, the combined SA-2F/3/6 ratio was 1 intercept out of 25-30 launches.

Edited December 25, 2009 by Fubar512

[Guest HoneyFox]

No, looks like you did not describe it properly.  

 

And I quote: "i've also been shot down far away by sa-10. but i just cannot stand that several missiles are just flying around me and their trails are all over the sky... and they seem to unable to turn ( in the first frame, the missile turns to me for about 1 or 2 degrees, and in the next frame, it turns to the opposite direction for about 1 degrees or so) so the missile looks trembling and vibrating in a small amplitude and this looks quite weird..."

 

Sounds like spiraling to me....

 

 

 

I've seen every type of SAM available for this series hit their targets. And that means SA-2s,3s,5s,6s,7s,8s,9s,10s,11s,13s,18s,Nikes, Hawks, Chaparrals, Terriers, etc, etc, etc. And, in game, they usually exceed real life launch-to-intercept ratios by a significant margin.  It took something on the order of 110 SA-2 launches to knock down one aircraft during the last full year of the Vietnam war.  Even during the height of the Yom Kippur war, the combined SA-2F/3/6 ratio was 1 intercept out of 25-30 launches.

 

 

 

 

well... maybe it is time to use a picture to explain...

 

 

 

This screenshot is taken in weapon-to-target view mode.

 

The missile is flying at medium altitude and high speed.

 

but its heading is not towards the target. the missile just places its target at its 9 o'clock.

 

the kill ratio is not the problem here. it can be adjusted by weapondata. the problem here is the missile's guidance law i think.

 

 

[Fubar512 1,350]

well... maybe it is time to use a picture to explain...

 

 

 

This screenshot is taken in weapon-to-target view mode.

 

The missile is flying at medium altitude and high speed.

 

but its heading is not towards the target. the missile just places its target at its 9 o'clock.

 

the kill ratio is not the problem here. it can be adjusted by weapondata. the problem here is the missile's guidance law i think.

 

Well, there's a problem with that screen shot, assuming its a SAM (which is what the thread's about). And that is; there is no weapon to target view for SAMs.

Edited December 25, 2009 by Fubar512

[+EricJ 4,246]

Looks like he remembered the position of his aircraft versus the missile's location. Pretty easy to figure out.

Edited December 25, 2009 by EricJ

[Fubar512 1,350]

Looks like he remembered the position of his aircraft versus the missile's location. Pretty easy to figure out.

 

Sure it is, Eric....it happens allllllll the time

 

If a SAM is launched from your nine o'clock, it does not head straight for you. It adjusts its trajectory to intercept a point in space in front of where its target is, at the time of launch (it's called the cutoff angle). A large maneuver by you just after the SAM is launched, is easily compensated for, by very small manauver on the SAMs part (while it is still some distance away). That is why the most effective SAM-avoidance maneuvers are those that are timed to occur at the last possible moment.

Edited December 25, 2009 by Fubar512

[+EricJ 4,246]

Sure it is, Eric....it happens allllllll the time

 

Yup it is, how do think I figured out how do defeat the SA-10? It's not hard at all. Just create a custom mission, go to where a known location is and rock and roll.

 

Besides, you can visually spot the missile trail (on a good day and that looks like one to me) and do your best to evade it.

Edited December 26, 2009 by EricJ

[Guest HoneyFox]

I have to tell both of you, this problem is not as easy as you thought.

 

first, SAM missile-to-target view can be easily achieved via viewlist.ini editing. so my plane's position is at the accurate center of the picture.

 

second, in that screenshot, my plane is actually flying towards the right side of the screen, not the left side. if you mean it is intercepting, i guess the missile at least should fly to the right not left.

 

and in fact, this missile is actually not flying to the point of intercept. i know the concept of intercept point and i know something about proportional angular guidance law( poor english though, this may have another name ).

 

 

[+EricJ 4,246]

I have to tell both of you, this problem is not as easy as you thought.

 

first, SAM missile-to-target view can be easily achieved via viewlist.ini editing. so my plane's position is at the accurate center of the picture.

 

second, in that screenshot, my plane is actually flying towards the right side of the screen, not the left side. if you mean it is intercepting, i guess the missile at least should fly to the right not left.

 

and in fact, this missile is actually not flying to the point of intercept. i know the concept of intercept point and i know something about proportional angular guidance law( poor english though, this may have another name ).

 

No worries man, I haven't really messed with viewlist.ini editing other to adjust the zoom level on the cockpit view.

[Guest HoneyFox]

:yes:  I think i should draw a draft to show you the problem.

 

hmm... a top-view picture will show it clear.

 

 

 

red circle is the detection range of the sam.

 

red dot is the sam site.

 

blue points are plane's position when it is 0sec after sam launches, 5sec after sam launches, 10sec after sam launches... etc.

 

blue arrow shows the heading of the plane. assuming that the plane is flying level and straight.

 

red curve is the trajectory of the sam missile. i couldn't call that 'trajectory has no problem'.

Edited December 26, 2009 by HoneyFox

[+EricJ 4,246]

That is a big problem.. and come to mention it, I noticed a flight of Escort planes make it through GermanyCE without getting picked off by SA-10s (however were shot down by other SAM types) despite the numerous "SAM Launch! SAM Launch!" calls. Guess it's time to find an SA-10 site and get shot at..

 

Actually looks strange for a intercept geometry. It theoretically could be that the missile is acting like it's "level" and trying to intercept you the old fashioned way rather than making a direct line of sorts to you (as a VLS missile should). So it could be game logic that's throwing it off, as it's trying to lead you but it's not making the intercept due to the initial launch trajectory. And with a turn rate of 20g, it should be able to make the turn towards you easy.

 

You jamming by the way? or are you not?

Edited December 26, 2009 by EricJ

[Guest HoneyFox]

That is a big problem.. and come to mention it, I noticed a flight of Escort planes make it through GermanyCE without getting picked off by SA-10s (however were shot down by other SAM types) despite the numerous "SAM Launch! SAM Launch!" calls.  Guess it's time to find an SA-10 site and get shot at..

 

Actually looks strange for a intercept geometry.  It theoretically could be that the missile is acting like it's "level" and trying to intercept you the old fashioned way rather than making a direct line of sorts to you (as a VLS missile should).  So it could be game logic that's throwing it off, as it's trying to lead you but it's not making the intercept due to the initial launch trajectory.  And with a turn rate of 20g, it should be able to make the turn towards you easy.

 

You jamming by the way? or are you not?

 

 

 

 

yes, this is strange enough...

 

 

because that screenshot was taken when i was testing this sa-10 problem. so i didn't have my jammer on on my f-4e actually. and i am flying level and straight.

 

actually, another sa-10 site also launched a missile, and it successfully guided itself to me. so i finally got hit by that one, and that missile is using a correct lead trajectory.  but this one really had some problem. 

 

 

[Guest HoneyFox]

the missile failed to guide itself to the target is not using pure pursuit guidance law either...

 

i once change the missile guidance type to radio commanded or beam rider or something alike.

 

those missile guidance types will use pure pursuit guidance law. and sa-10 turns perfectly with those guidance types, but as a result, has a quite low hit ratio due to its pure pursuit's terminal turn-rate limit.

 

but if i use active radar homing/semi active radar homing/heat seeking with all aspect, the missile will have such problem...

 

 

[+EricJ 4,246]

Well nobody said that game logic versus real world logic totally matches. Overall if you're not paying attention anyways the SA-10 will snatch you up. Any conscious thought of where it is, and you have a reasonable chance of success. Guess until real pure pursuit logic works itself out, or is correctly modeled, you'll have to deal with it.

Edited December 26, 2009 by EricJ