Fokker D VI - Better than the Dr. 1 ?

[Olham 164]

Well, "correctly modelled" is a tricky word anyway here, as I assume, that there must be

lots of values to get tuned in a way to get the specific character of a craft.

 

And as you said: by changing one value, you might inflict another and change the whole

flight model in an undesired way.

 

So all I could beg for would be, that this unrecoverable stall and spin gets looked at

and that attempts are made to get rid of it without spoiling the whole model.

If that is not possible to change, we must live with it as it is.

[UnknownPilot 33]

Well, "correctly modelled" is a tricky word anyway here, as I assume, that there must be

lots of values to get tuned in a way to get the specific character of a craft.

 

And as you said: by changing one value, you might inflict another and change the whole

flight model in an undesired way.

 

So all I could beg for would be, that this unrecoverable stall and spin gets looked at

and that attempts are made to get rid of it without spoiling the whole model.

If that is not possible to change, we must live with it as it is.

 

 

Some of that comes down to limitations of the underlying physics engine. But that aside, I suppose the question is "what is correctly modeled?", and in that regard, strictly speaking, I don't think an unrecoverable spin is all that big a deal.

 

Let me explain.... the Bf-109 was known for extremely gentle stalls where the nose would just mush out, but you'd always have aileron control (that's what those leading edge slats are for, afterall). However, in IL2, it has been known (in various patch levels) to have some rather more viscious stall tendencies. But those came from chasing the actual performance parameters. And in a combat sim, those are what matters most.

 

So, for ANY plane (from any era in any sim), the overall performance is the critical thing - climb, dive, acceleration, top speed, roll rate, turn rate (for props, torque, prop-wash, p-factor), etc. If those result in an unintended and inaccurate stall behavior, well, so be it.

 

And to that end I would say that you can have something "correctly modeled" even if the stall behavior is way out of line - so long as the other stuff is accurate. (in fact, one would hope that all the above factors would add up to take off and landing behavior that matches the real thing as well, since that, along with combat, is where people will be spending their time, and it could be argued that either riding the edge of stall, or staying away from it altogehter while in combat is the "proper" way to fight, but we all have to slow down to landing speed and wrangle it down to the ground (eventually). ;) )

[Fortiesboy 3]

 

It was best described by the comment that.... "if a German pilot wasn't careful, he could do a full loop and still remain in front of his opponent!" While that may be a slight bit of hyperbole, it's effect, intent, and meaning is pretty clear.

 

LOL - I love hyperbole. U.P. Do you fly OFF? ( I thought you didn't have it yet! )

If so, which FMs are the best in your opinion.

[Creaghorn 10]

as long as i know you could with almost every WW1 aicraft get into a "unrecoverable" spin. actually often they weren't really unrecoverable, but lot of pilots did instinctively the wrong moves during a spin, and that made it worse instead of flaten it straight again. they died through sheer inexperience. e.g. if you fall into a lefthanded spin, one is instincitvely tempted panically to push the stick and aileron hard right to get out of the spin. the right thing to do was simply let the stick go (and say a little prayer meanwhile) and let the craft spin to the moment it catches some pressure from itself again. sometimes it even helped to bank into the spin.

so maybe for anybody here who gets into unrecoverable spins. try the next time with just letting the stick go and waiting for it to catch itself again (and don't forget the prayer)

[UnknownPilot 33]

LOL - I love hyperbole. U.P. Do you fly OFF? ( I thought you didn't have it yet! )

If so, which FMs are the best in your opinion.

 

I don't have it yet. I'm not sure where I tossed my copy of Crap... err I mean "Combat" Flight Sim 3. lol

 

But seriously, it's around somewhere, I just haven't had time to find it. Presently I'm involved in a Rolling Thunder campaign in Strike Fighters 2: Vietnam with VF-84 in F-4Bs. And after that, I suspect I'll either go with an F-104 campaign, or a VA campaign (A-4, A-7, or A-6), or even maybe a Thud, or some more CAS. Either way, right now that's the current new shiny. But I remain very much interested in WWI kites, and sims for them. This thread is a good one that I keep checking on because it's about the plane itself (which has always been one of my favorites, although I'm more of an Albatros guy, just on looks. But the S-S D.IV was an awesome design from a technical standpoint, and ya just gotta love the F. DVII and DVIII, plus it would be awesome to fly around in a Taube, and I've always liked the DeHaviland DH2.... oh hell, I love (nearly) them all. lol )

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Creaghorn, I don't know that any of the OFF craft have an "unrecoverable" spin, and as you say if you do the right thing it is quite simple to get out of nearly every spin we run into here.

 

UnknownPilot, welcome to the OFF forums Sir. I've been following your posts and I have to say your writing style and turn of a phrase, (as well as your moniker), remind me of one or two of my old RAF comrades from the RB3D 209 Squadron. You wouldn't happen to be one of them would you?

 

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[Olham 164]

UnknownPilot: This thread is a good one that I keep checking on because it's about the plane itself

(which has always been one of my favorites, although I'm more of an Albatros guy, just on looks.

 

Hey - a man who loves my beloved Albatros, cannot be bad really - welcome again!

Please tell, when you have OFF, cause then I'd like to add you to the OFF Pilots map.

[Creaghorn 10]

.Creaghorn, I don't know that any of the OFF craft have an "unrecoverable" spin, and as you say if you do the right thing it is quite simple to get out of nearly every spin we run into here.

 

others have mentioned often such spins in previous posts, though i haven't experienced one spin yet wich wasn't recoverable relatively easy. so it was more of an advice .

in fact it's maybe even too easy to get out of a spin. but i might be wrong because my only comparison is to rb3d with greybeards FM, where a spin was more deadly than in BHAH.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Creaghorn, I have been in a few I did not recover from, but I chalked it up to my own inexperience. As my skills have improved with these kites I have not gotten into one I could not get back out of. And I agree about Greybeard's RB3D FM, that one was a killer if you did not stay on top of it.

 

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[Creaghorn 10]

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Creaghorn, I have been in a few I did not recover from, but I chalked it up to my own inexperience. As I have gotten better with these kites I have not gotten into one I could not get back out of. And I agree about Greybeard's RB3D FM, that one was a killer if you did not stay on top of it.

 

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that's the point lou. i don't think it's much a FM problem but rather a thing of handling the AC. i think i was rather lucky with the spins because i'm flying 95% german campaigns and german AC have mostly a better platform and do not spin as easy as most allied rotaries. so i didn't experience such a deadly spin yet.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Roger that, Creaghorn. This last weekend I was again flying one of Olham's beloved Alb DIII's and was, again, completely enjoying it. It is such an even-tempered kite to fly and fight in, plus it looks as fine as any WWI mount could, and for style it beats nearly every British bus hands down...nearly.

 

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[UnknownPilot 33]

Louvert, thanks for the welcome, but I'm afraid I've never been part of any RAF squad, nor any RB3D squad of any kind (I did go through hell to obtain a copy, and got the Full Canvas Jacket patch and all the other upgrades I could find, but in the end, the result just wasn't worth it and ultimately I found FS-WWI more appealing).

 

 

Olham, will do.

 

 

 

Regarding spins... surely the Camel should be able to get into an unrecoverable one? Pilot experience is a lot, but as I saw in a sig quote around this site - a superior pilot is one who avoids situations which would require him to use his superior skills. Meaning that staying away from stalls, or reacting quickly enough when you sense that a stall or spin is imminent to correct it before it ever develops would be where experience would matter most. But from what I've read, that massive torque and close coupled nature of the Camel was such that if it did enter a spin, there was often no hope of recovery. That may have been purely aerodynamic (plus torque), or it may have been from lack of altitude (generally you aren't going to be at 20,000 feet, especially in a fight that's gone a few passes. lol).

 

I'm not saying it's a fact (about the Camel), just what I remember reading....

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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UnknownPilot, I have been logging many hours in the OFF Camel as it is my kite of choice and I will say that you can get it into a nasty spin PDQ if you want to. But given enough alt you can get back out of it as well provided you don't do precisely what Creaghorn mentioned earlier. That being said, you can kill yourself very fast if you attempt something foolish like a hard turn to port immediately after take-off. That will screw you into the ground quite nicely. And IIRC that was how a large number of WWI Camel pilots died, attempting a climbing turn to port at too low a speed and too close to Mother Earth.

 

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[RAF_Louvert 101]

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BTW UnknownPilot, here is the link to an OFF movie I did a while ago. About half way into it I purposely put my Camel into a death spin for dramatic effect then flew back out of it. Enjoy.

 

Duel In The Sun

 

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[Olham 164]

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Roger that, Creaghorn. This last weekend I was again flying one of Olham's beloved Alb DIII's and was, again, completely enjoying it. It is such an even-tempered kite to fly and fight in, plus it looks as fine as any WWI mount could, and for style it beats nearly every British bus hands down...nearly.

 

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Okay, that must be the maximum compliment you could possibly get into scribbled lines as an Entente pilot, RAF_Louvert,

so my kite and I take it as it is.

The Albatros, when you really know it, is a quiet, unnervous, stabile-aiming fighter, that can take quite some hits;

and if it can't do anything extraodinarily, it is more than good average in everything.

 

Myself, I didn't have any unrecoverable stalls in the Dr.1 - I think it was Hasse Wind who wrote about such.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Olham

[UnknownPilot 33]

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BTW UnknownPilot, here is the link to an OFF movie I did a while ago. About half way into it I purposely put my Camel into a death spin for dramatic effect then flew back out of it. Enjoy.

 

Duel In The Sun

 

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Hmm... looks like a pacifist was just out sight-seeing in a colorful plane and you barbarously shot the poor non-combatant to pipeces. lol

 

Was your plane really flying sideways as much as it appeared to be, or was that just some artifact of the filming?

 

And shooting a German plane down with Mozart playing....that's just wrong.

[cptroyce 0]

This thread is Deja Vu from the RB forums of 10-12 years ago.."The Dr1 is Porked" debates went on and on for years.

 

When I(among several others)was "tinkering/toiling" on the FM mods for RB, I did alot of reading on the Dr1. I recall from first hand accounts that I had read, that while the Dr1 could climb wonderfully and had the ability to "hang on the prop"(I forgot the German phrase for this..Olham?) and fire at an enemy above, it apparently was very hard/non-responsive to turn; which surprised me. Some accounts likened it to turning a truck.

 

For anyone interested, there is a terrific(IMHO)book called "Three Wings For The Red Baron"...don't mind the inane title..that deals with much of the physics, statistics, and engineering background behind the Dr1 as well as many other models.

 

Regards,

Royce

[UnknownPilot 33]

I'd love to see that info cptroyce. Everything I've read is quite the opposite. That high drag plus low power pretty much precluded hanging on the prop, which on the other hand the DVII was known for (at least with the hot engine), while the Dr.1 had a crazy ability to "flat turn" as well as pull insanely tight loops and climb incredibly fast.

 

Take off roll was very short because of it. And that pilot writing for Air and Space corroborated it, as did the 7 (or was it 9?) pilots that it took to down Werner Voss, who was all alone I might add - and in the process he took several out of commision and damaged just about all of them.

 

 

Now, that said... the bottom 2 wings and under carriage wing-let produced more drag than they did lift. Since Fokker could produce an unbraced wing, he went with just 1 high in the D.VIII and had a very potent machine (which, IIRC, got the last kill of the war, didn't it?). But even though 3 (.25 hehe) wings were ultimately doomed in favor of power and speed, and even though they created immense drag, they did in fact lift - a LOT. That means it'll climb and loop well.

 

The only thing I've read as negatives were top speed, a slower roll than could be desired, and landing difficulty.

[cptroyce 0]

UP- Let me see if I can dig up the information (give me a day or so..real life etc.) and I will post it here.

If you are at all interested in the subject of WW1 aviation (and it seems that you are) try to read that book I mentioned. I found it facinating..title not withstanding ;>)

 

Royce

[UnknownPilot 33]

Thanks.

 

And I would love to check out that book. And get a new PC for this game and others. And replace the insulation in my house. And buy some performance parts for my car that I've had my eye on. And..... All it takes is money. lol

[cptroyce 0]

UP-

 

Excert from "In The Cockpit - Flying The World's Great Aircraft". The Fokker Triplane by Peter Kilduff..." The Allies had no way of knowing just what it was like to fly the Fokker triplane or to perform one of it's most interesting tactics - that of seeming to 'hang on it's propeller with the nose raised to pour machine gun fire into the undersides of an adversary". A case in point was described by Thomas B. Buffum, an American who flew with the French Spad fighter squardron Escadrille SPA 77: "The new Fokker triplanes...seemed strange to us, but apparently had marvellous manoeuvrability, especially in standing on their tails and shooting straight up". From a combat report of Josef Jacobs: "...I left kicked my rudderand swung toward one of the fighters, when I was jumped from behind by three other SE5's as well as three Bristol fighters that came in shooting at me. At this warm welcome, I stood my triplane on it's tail and got out of there to gain some altitude from which to engage the enemy again".

 

I'll post the information regarding it's agility in another post.

 

Regards,

Royce

[Olham 164]

Wonderful, cptroyce - some real information on that aircraft!

[Flyby PC 23]

UP-

 

Excert from "In The Cockpit - Flying The World's Great Aircraft". The Fokker Triplane by Peter Kilduff..." The Allies had no way of knowing just what it was like to fly the Fokker triplane or to perform one of it's most interesting tactics .....

 

 

Hold on, I think the pilots of Sopwith Tripes might have had an inkling....

[Olham 164]

No, I believe, that the Triplane and the Dr.1 where still pretty different.

A Triplane could not perform, for example, the flat turn.

Turnwise, the Fokker Dr.1 must have been absolutely outstanding.

[cptroyce 0]

Olham- What is the phrase in German for "hanging on the prop" ?? I read it somewhere in relation to the Dr1 but can't find it now.

 

Tonight I'll try and post some pilot reports on the manoeuvrability of the triplane. There's one I believe from a British pilot on the combat flying of Werner Voss..really astounding.

 

Royce