Some FM feedback for Peter01

[+whiteknight06604 934]

ok I figured I'd start a new topic that way I won't be clogging up everyone elses threads.I spent a little time with the Dr one.I really like how it feels.I havn't really flow it to much before but I do notice a difference.the flat turns are pretty cool.I have trouble doing it consistantly but I think that is more my piloting skill than a FM issue.I had a little trouble keeping my speed up but I think that is probobly realistic with all the drag of three wings and me testing the menuverability.I was dogfighting the 130hp camels (not the newest)FM and the AI Dr1s gave as well as they got.The AI seemed for the most part to cope with the FM ,I didn't notice any floundering about the sky or plumetting to the ground.Climb seemed really good except for me losing speed pretty fast but that may have been me pulling to hard on the stick.I'll do more testing then move onto the Camel.I hope this is of some help.

[+whiteknight06604 934]

ok my initial feelings on the camel FM.It's a hell of a frisky beast.I was having trouble keeping it under control.My fault because of my ham fisted flighing but I have a feeling if I was to devote lots of time to learning the ups and downs of her I would be unbeatable,which to me seems like how the camel has been described historicaly.I had a ball turning to the left but found if I wasn't carful I was spining out of control.I'll give more feedback as I learn more about the Camel.I have a feeling I will be flying the Camel alot more now.

[+peter01 2]

Frisky beast indeed.

 

Not sure which version you are using, did you see my last post on previous thread? But I redid the Camel and Dr1. The Dr1 is more developed - it neede some more work, and the Camel is a little less frisky I guess, but certainly still interesting, maybe more *feel* too.

 

I'll upload the two FMs here again because I have improved the AI (maybe more work needed on that still), and this includes two missions, Dr1 vs Camel and vice versa. Both are very tough dogfights but the Dr1 is a bit superior.

 

You can in fact even do a 360 degree flat turn with the Dr1, just need some opposite aileron balancing.

 

The Camel turns very fast to the right, and nose drops - gyro effects. Opposite on a left turn. Frisky indeed! Hopefully they are interesting, that is the point, that is how they should be I think.

 

Thanks again for your help! And no rush.

 

whiteknight Camel Dr1 Missions.zip

Edited February 27, 2010 by peter01

[Southside Bucky 1]

Hi Peter.

 

Just a few thoughts and observations:

 

ATM, the Gyro effect has both the Camel and Dr.I pulling to the left...I think it should be the opposite way.

 

The Camel's right turn could also be a tad quicker, IMO. Or is it because the Triplane seems just a little bit "uber"?...I'm note sure.

 

Essentially though, you're doing a great job in capturing the essential flight characteristics of these two...I imagine they're probably two of the trickiest FM's of all?

 

Keep up the great work!

 

Bucky

[+peter01 2]

Hi Peter.

 

Just a few thoughts and observations:

 

ATM, the Gyro effect has both the Camel and Dr.I pulling to the left...I think it should be the opposite way.

 

The Camel's right turn could also be a tad quicker, IMO. Or is it because the Triplane seems just a little bit "uber"?...I'm note sure.

 

Essentially though, you're doing a great job in capturing the essential flight characteristics of these two...I imagine they're probably two of the trickiest FM's of all?

 

Keep up the great work!

 

Bucky

 

Thanks for feedback Bucky.

 

Have tried, but can't change the prop inertia effect (pulling to the left) without compromising the general gyro effect. In fact the gyro effect works correctly on turns because of the inertia effect pulling to the left in this FM, and in TKs Flight Model. Tried a few things, but any change to the direction of the prop inertia reverses the gyro effect. It is perplexing why this is implemented so - and perhaps why TK didn't implement them in his FMs.

 

I think you are correct about the Camel's turn, slightly underdone in the last version I uploaded - it was better in the first version, the more "friskier" one.

[Southside Bucky 1]

 

Have tried, but can't change the prop inertia effect (pulling to the left) without compromising the general gyro effect.

 

 

Bit of a shame, but whaddaya gonna do?...You're governed by the limitations of the game. It's certainly no great showstopper as far as I'm concerned Peter. You only really notice the left pull when flying in a straight line and barely touching the stick anyway.

 

 

 

 

I think you are correct about the Camel's turn, slightly underdone in the last version I uploaded - it was better in the first version, the more "friskier" one.

 

 

Yeah, I thought so too...The friskier, the better, as far as the Camel's concerned, I reckon. :yes:

 

So, do we go back to the previous (Frisky) version, or is there more work to do before you're happy with it?

 

Regards.

 

Bucky

[+peter01 2]

Well, Whiteknights feedback was great - he liked the first version, the "friskier" one. I had been a little concerned it was too extreme, and it needed some work on the feel. So I did a second more standard one.

 

But, on reflection after WK's comments, the "friskier" version is also the one I like considerably better too. So the answer is somewhere between, which I have done, and like a lot. This Camel is jittery, has pronounced gyro effects on turns, slightly tail-heavy, spins/stalls quickly, with spins quite strong, and turns faster to right. With the latter, at the moment in my tests, you can beat the Dr1, but only if you watch the stalls-spins and turn to the right. Seems correct to me - frisky and takes some practise to master the plane.

 

The Dr1 is easier to fly and to do, and is improved. I also had to slow down the AI. The damn AI use rudder too effectively, and the rudder on this one is very good.

 

The whole AI thing is tricky, because although these are the ultimate dogfighters and should be a good match, I wanted to make sure you could beat them with other good planes too, eg Fokker D7 vs Ace AI Camel, Spad 13 vs Ace AI Dr1 (which is fun). I can do that with some difficulty, if I BnZ. Hence looking ok.

 

So 95% there, but the tweaking though likely minor will go slowly. Happy to re-upload these here if anyone is interested in pre-betas!

Edited March 1, 2010 by peter01

[Bandy 3]

Pre-betas! Frisky and "friskier" Camels! I can't keep them straight anymore, but the alternative is --well-- let's not go there.

I shudder to think how this sim would feel without your FMs Peter.

 

BTW, you have FE2 right Peter? Are the FMs you are working on now using that generation of flight engine?

[Southside Bucky 1]

...Happy to re-upload these here if anyone is interested in pre-betas!

 

 

Yeah, if you don't mind. The previous versions are tucked away in the OEF Albatros thread...Took me a while to find 'em!

 

I'd also agree that the AI Triplanes need pegging back a notch or two, but other than that they're both just about done if you ask me...Great fun in a furball, flying in or against either of 'em.

[+peter01 2]

Yeah, if you don't mind. The previous versions are tucked away in the OEF Albatros thread...Took me a while to find 'em!

 

I'd also agree that the AI Triplanes need pegging back a notch or two, but other than that they're both just about done if you ask me...Great fun in a furball, flying in or against either of 'em.

 

These are the laatest ones, different to any previous ones uploaded.

 

Pre Beta Camel Dr1 with Missions.zip

Edited March 1, 2010 by peter01

[+peter01 2]

Pre-betas! Frisky and "friskier" Camels! I can't keep them straight anymore, but the alternative is --well-- let's not go there.

I shudder to think how this sim would feel without your FMs Peter.

 

BTW, you have FE2 right Peter? Are the FMs you are working on now using that generation of flight engine?

 

Yeah Bandy, I do have FE2.

 

I'm doing the FMs for FE1.

 

The AI in FE1 and FE2 are the same, so no problems there.

 

The FMs work okay in FE2, but ... TK has changed how the pitch and roll work, both slower (and it is better). As I did the FMs quite differently at times to the "standard" way, ie TKs, some planes don't feel as good though relative performance etc will be the same, and they are okay if not great. others are just as good in FE1 or FE2, just a bit different.

 

It is hard to explain, but one example. Because the pitch in FE1 was too tight/tense at times, I increased the pitch deflection angles at times to compensate, eg standard 30 degrees to sometime 36 degrees. It softens the feel of the pitch, and I'd tweak them until they were how I wanted them. However as the pitch tenseness/sensitivity is reduced in FE2 these particular FMs feel more flaky then they do in FE1, compared to others that have 30 degree pitches that I have done. It is quite easy to redo this.

 

But I do quite a few things differently, and I suspect some of those may not work as well (in terms of feel only), but then again they may work fine too, or well enough.

 

I won't be redoing anything for FE2 yet though, I suspect that when I really get interested, when another expansion pack is done, TK will again make changes to the Flight Model.

[+peter01 2]

Pre Beta Camel Dr1 with Missions.zip

 

Bucky, a bonus - a new Triplane FM. About 95% complete too. That in a nutshell is my problem currently, many nearly ready but not quite!

 

Tripe.zip

 

Let me know what you think.

Edited March 1, 2010 by peter01

[OlPaint01 0]

Hello Peter01

 

I grabbed onto your new Camel and Dr1 FMs that you put up for Whiteknight as soon as I discovered them in this thread and over-wrote my old FEG FMs. But to my amazement, the new FMs have disabled my engine sounds for both the Camel the Dr1. I had to restore the _data.ini files from my backup copies to finally get the engine sounds back. What am I doing wrong?

 

OlPaint01

[+peter01 2]

Hello Peter01

 

I grabbed onto your new Camel and Dr1 FMs that you put up for Whiteknight as soon as I discovered them in this thread and over-wrote my old FEG FMs. But to my amazement, the new FMs have disabled my engine sounds for both the Camel the Dr1. I had to restore the _data.ini files from my backup copies to finally get the engine sounds back. What am I doing wrong?

 

OlPaint01

 

Hi OlPaint01,

 

Likely you don't have a RotaryEngine sound in your Sounds Folder. Two things you can do.

 

The simplest is make a copy of your PropLoop sound file in that folder and rename the copy RotaryEngine.

 

Or use the A-teams RotaryEngine sound by extracting it from one of their rotary plane packages and palcing it in the Sounds Folder.

Edited March 1, 2010 by peter01

[Southside Bucky 1]

Bucky, a bonus - a new Triplane FM. About 95% complete too. That in a nutshell is my problem currently, many nearly ready but not quite!

 

Tripe.zip

 

Let me know what you think.

 

 

Hi again Peter.

 

After testing this one out for ten minutes or so, I was thinking the changes in this particular version were really, really subtle...So subtle in fact, that I couldn't tell any difference at all from the previous version.

 

That's when I noticed you named this one; 'Triplane_DATA.ini', as opposed to 'FOKKERDR1_DATA.INI'...LOL! You got me good there, Peter!

 

Also, when you said it was 95% complete, I thought you were referring to the FM, not the model itself...In the VC view, this one has no wings or forward fuselage. The view from the cockpit was awesome!

[+peter01 2]

Hi again Peter.

 

After testing this one out for ten minutes or so, I was thinking the changes in this particular version were really, really subtle...So subtle in fact, that I couldn't tell any difference at all from the previous version.

 

That's when I noticed you named this one; 'Triplane_DATA.ini', as opposed to 'FOKKERDR1_DATA.INI'...LOL! You got me good there, Peter!

 

Also, when you said it was 95% complete, I thought you were referring to the FM, not the model itself...In the VC view, this one has no wings or forward fuselage. The view from the cockpit was awesome!

 

Ha. Seems like somewhat similar experiences to mine Bucky. Maybe we have been flying these doped, unstable crates a wee bit too long?

[Southside Bucky 1]

After placing the 'Triplane_DATA.INI in the correct aircraft folder , I can now give you a slightly better informed opinion on it:

 

Feels good to me...Not drastically different from the last version (Ver 2.0 April 2009), but less jittery or skittish somehow. I noticed a tendency for it to start buffeting quite easily, but I imagine that would be quite accurate considering the number of wings.

 

Up against the Halberstadt D.II the Tripe is markedly (and I think, correct historically) superior.

 

Gotta admit I've yet to fly it against the new Albatros DV/a's you just uploaded, but I suspect the Tripe will be quite evenly matched against them.

 

IMO, another good'un...Well done!

[Bandy 3]

Has anyone experienced AI opponent with a shot-out dead engine, yet the AI pilot maintains flight control?

 

I've always been morbidly interested in what happens to AI NME with a dud engine since first days of FE (remember the rampant "soft landings"?), then subsequent patches where soft landings almost never happened, or at least I never saw one for years. So now I try to follow them down every chance I get. Most times the pilot disappears after around 30 seconds and the AC crashes.

 

Lately the pilot seems to be lasting much longer, and despite not having an engine some aircraft I've seen will still try to dogfight you if you follow them. On one occasion I had a prolonged dogfight with a Fokker DIII that did not loose altitude over the course of several minutes, and when I flew off finally "he" kept doing his patrol. I've had a few weird instances of things like this, but maybe not quite like that DIII.

 

Not sure if these are unique glitches in how the game loaded on those occasions, so wanted to ask if others had weird experiences like this, or if might have something to do with the FM's.

[Southside Bucky 1]

Can't say that I've come across any of those specific circumstances you mention there Bandy, but I have noticed a rather annoying tendency for AI planes to casually fly on for miles with blazing engine fires.

 

Anyone know what's causing this or how it can be stopped?

[Bandy 3]

Oh, I have not seen that Buckey. Sounds like OFF2!!! I can rememebr fighting against EIII's with the engines blazing and the pilot looking for all the world like the blazing Ghost Rider...

 

This is an interesting development. Engine fire but the pilot must have been unaffected according to the code, so he kept flying the burning crate. Got to admit, that does take heart!

 

EDIT: so much for the notion that parachutes will make pilots prematurely jump out of their aircraft...

Edited March 5, 2010 by Bandy

[+peter01 2]

This has a long history. It is in the code, but you can force the pilot "to die" in the FM.

 

In FE Original (prior to the Expansion Pack), the pilot would try to make a forced landing after sustaining engine damage. It was quite neat. But the downside was that the pilot would still try to dogfight you, and even without an engine were quite capable. In the FMs I did for that version of the game, I forced the pilot "to die" immediately with an engine hit, simply because I found it completely ridiculous - but no forced landings of course.

 

TK changed this in the first version of the Expansion Pack, the pilot "died" some seconds later (maybe 10-20, can't remember) after an engine hit. I changed my FMs back, there was no need to link the engine and pilot hits anymore. Some people didn't like this development ... no more forced landings at all.

 

Then in another patch (Nov, 2008 Patch I think), TK came up with the current solution. Pilots can fly with engine damage, but don't dogfight. So they can make forced landings if at low altitude when hit, and do. At high altitudes basically they just fly for a long while and then eventually crash if their engines were disabled initially at high altitudes.

 

So TK sort of compromised the options, with forced landings a "feature", but that annoying side effect of continuing to fly for some time (without allowing them to continue dogfighting, which was the real immersion killer for me).

 

The option from an FM point of view is to leave them as TK has designed. Or have the pilot "die" when the engine is disabled. neither is perfect, TK maybe will improve this down the track - he is very, very aware of the game, and it's limitations/problems.

[Southside Bucky 1]

Is it an easy DIY fix, Peter?...I reckon a "dead" AI pilot and subsequent crash to earth is preferable to watching 'em nonchalantly fly off home engulfed in flames.

[+peter01 2]

Is it an easy DIY fix, Peter?...I reckon a "dead" AI pilot and subsequent crash to earth is preferable to watching 'em nonchalantly fly off home engulfed in flames.

 

Well yeah, for one or a few planes, but not for 80-100 unless you are *real* keen.

 

The "pilot" is normally placed in the fuselage section, and the "engine" in the nose section.

 

Put the pilot in the nose. make sure numbering of SystemName[XXX]= is consecutive for the new spot for pilot moved to engine, and fix those in the moved part, the fuselage section. Example, TKs Albatros Dv ...

 

Currently ....

 

[Fuselage]

 

SystemName[001]=InternalGun1

SystemName[002]=InternalGun2

SystemName[003]=LeftMainGear

SystemName[004]=RightMainGear

SystemName[005]=FuselageFuelTank

SystemName[006]=Pilot

SystemName[007]=BombCompartment

 

[Nose]

 

SystemName[001]=Engine

 

 

Change to ....

 

 

[Fuselage]

 

SystemName[001]=InternalGun1

SystemName[002]=InternalGun2

SystemName[003]=LeftMainGear

SystemName[004]=RightMainGear

SystemName[005]=FuselageFuelTank

SystemName[006]=BombCompartment

 

[Nose]

 

SystemName[001]=Engine

SystemName[002]=Pilot

 

 

Notice the numbering changes. If incorrect - problems!

 

Give it a try. This is how I used to do it, I'm sure it still works. I won't be doing or testing it simply because keeping up with TKs ever changing stuff has become not only annoying at times (like this one), but often will need to be rechanged if TK fixes it himself.

[Southside Bucky 1]

...keeping up with TKs ever changing stuff has become not only annoying at times (like this one), but often will need to be rechanged if TK fixes it himself...

 

 

Well, I suppose the "good news" is that TK's finished with FE1 as far as changes and developments are concerned, so anyone wanting to implement those changes to every plane in their FE1 install can do it safe in the knowledge that they'll only have to do it once...Unless you continue updating FE1 FM's, of course!

 

Thanks for the instructions Peter.

[+peter01 2]

That is true, but I use the same set of FMs for FE1 and FE2. They work fine.

 

There are a few more FMs to upload Bucky, and a several mods/tweaks to those I have already uploaded, then that is it for FE1.