Kind of a game ladder for prop lovers

[+guyran]

This is a furball mission between 8 P-51D Mustangs to 8 Egyptian Spits taking place on 1948 war of independence.

For the challenge purpose, I've changed the training level of the Egyptian pilots to experts. You need SF2I with exp1 to fly the mission.

Please set the simulation difficulty for hard before starting the mission (HUD only can be set to normal).

Try to survive the furball, and report how many kills.

 

To install copy/paste this mission into the missions folder on the mod directory.

P-51D Mustang vs spit.rar

Edited May 16, 2010 by guyran

[Gr.Viper]

Survived (wounded) with two kills, ~430 rounds expended. Actually 1 normal kill, 1 hit plane tried to follow and hit the ground, and another one hit the ground by itself.

The fight was fun. My whole flight was decimated, I took several hits, the engine caught fire, I shut it down and went into glide. Fire went out, the engine turned out to be fully functional Caught a couple more hits to the right wing, at which point the Spits lost interest, formed up and headed home. Used speed advantage and caught up with them.

Opened fire on the last plane in formation and realized that 3 guns on the right wing were silent. Still the Spit went down. Proceeded to the next one and in all this mess somehow missed one Spit, who turned out to be behind me (keeping my plane level was challenge enough). As I opened fire on a plane, the one in the back finally snapped and opened fire. So I called it a day (left guns died too) and headed for the nearest base, followed by the Spit who had seen me and the one whose wing I'd scratched. The scratched one crashed, the other Spit followed me right ot the AAA of Israeli base.

At which point, playing with view keys I accidentialy pressed Esc and quit. Gaaahhh, I knew, I should've changed that binding... Now I'll have to reenact the whole thing again just to see the ending.

 

Is it me or damaged surfaces lose efficiency? My wing was in place, had standard damage texture, but it felt as if it had hole in the surface.

[+guyran]

It seems that SF2 AI can give you quite a fight for your money...

This is definitely not an easy challenge, and so far you are the only survivor reported.

I myself have failed to survive 3 missions so far.

Could be that spit is better fighter and better armed than the P-51?

When I get a spit cockpit, can be interesting to reverse the airplanes.

Edited May 16, 2010 by guyran

[Gr.Viper]

I just got really lucky.

 

Seems Mustang AI doesn't quite know how to turn efficiently. They pull the stick too much and release.

 

Try the same set up with Vampires. For some reason they are easier to beat (well, at least to hit) even with excellent training.

[+guyran]

Try the same set up with Vampires. For some reason they are easier to beat (well, at least to hit) even with excellent training.

 

I don't want this mission to be too easy.

If no one can survive it except you, I can always lower the training level of the spits to normal.

[+Stary]

This setup is HARD... first few runs were my P-51D vs Spit (configuration I last time tried in Forgotten Battles for Il2) familiarization. The highest so far were 4 kills on hard, last one by sole working 50.cal (those jam quickly!). Then two on my tail got me. I had 6.6% bullets hit ratio on that attempt.

 

Guyran, I really like your idea

[+guyran]

This setup is HARD... first few runs were my P-51D vs Spit (configuration I last time tried in Forgotten Battles for Il2) familiarization. The highest so far were 4 kills on hard, last one by sole working 50.cal (those jam quickly!). Then two on my tail got me. I had 6.6% bullets hit ratio on that attempt.

 

Guyran, I really like your idea

Do you think its better to reduce the training level of the spits to normal in order to increase the chance to survive the mission?

[Gr.Viper]

Or you can go 16 vs 16 which in my Poland vs. RAF experiment gave P-51 bots a chance to bag two Spits.

[+Stary]

Do you think its better to reduce the training level of the spits to normal in order to increase the chance to survive the mission?

 

No, I think increasing player's flight wingmen's experience a bit would be better... now after less than two minutes combat, there's mostly me and two, three more P-51D agains most of enemies

[+guyran]

No, I think increasing player's flight wingmen's experience a bit would be better... now after less than two minutes combat, there's mostly me and two, three more P-51D agains most of enemies

 

It was already set for excellent, but even by increasing the training level to ace, I've soon enough found myself alone against a pack of four spits.

Maybe we are all evading the conclusion that in this sim, the spit is better fighter than the P-51 (AI vs AI)?

[+Stary]

seems so

 

I wonder how Spit vs Spit would outcome... will test tomorrow

[+guyran]

I'm working now on adopting the original TW's P-51D pit, to use with the spits, in order to make them flyable.

I don't like this solution, and I hope somebody will upload an original spit cockpit soon.

The upload file is waiting for administrator approval.

[+guyran]

Now with the Spit's pit available seems that the P-51D are 'meat on the table' for the spitfire, even AI vs AI.

[+Stary]

Guyran I agree,

 

also seems to me that stock P-51D flying friendly AI is inferior to any other AI planes, weird. Just my opservations of course, based on both normal and hard settings

[Gr.Viper]

I'm telling you, in each turn they get locked up in pull-stall-release cycle as Farmers did last year. Spits on the other hand turn normally. Have'nt checked the behaviour in new patch yet.

[+Stary]

good spot on the cycle Gr., no I have not intalled the patch yet

[Gr.Viper]

Same thing patched. Spit can came a sharp turn, Stang keeps running into pre-stall. P-51 doesn't even have a chance to fire.

 

K.. asking TK about this.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Gr.Viper

[+guyran]

Gr.viper and Stary: From our discussion here I've realized that this mission was impossible and suicidal.

For this reason, just Aces pilots like yourself could survive it to tell the story.

I've balanced the mission now, and added the mirror mission from the 'bad guys' point of view (same mission).

I hope that now, others can join us in this kind of ladder.

 

The new missions:

Missions.rar

[+guyran]

This is my 'opening bid' for the First balanced mission: P-51D vs Spitfire9c.

Simulation difficulty set for hard except HUD set for normal.

3 kills + 4 AI kilss. Scoring 1300. Accuracy 8.1% hits.

RTB without damage.

Losses: 4 P-51 killed, 2 damaged.

[+guyran]

Opening score for the second mission: Spitfire9c vs P-51D

Simulation difficulty set for hard except HUD set for normal.

4 kills + 4 AI kills. Scoring 2400. Accuracy cannons-6.6% MG-3.0%

RTB without damage.

Losses: 4 AI spits were damaged.

[+Gocad]

...

Could be that spit is better fighter and better armed than the P-51?

...

 

The Brits did test the Spitfire IX against a Mustang III (that's the P-51C, which was not that much different compared to the P-51D) and found that while the Mustang had a better high altitude performance, was faster and had of course a superior endurance, the Spitfire had an edge in terms of turning and roll rate. The Spitfire IX also climbs faster, but is behind the Mustang in a dive.

 

Regarding the armament, well the Spitfire has two 20mm cannons, which do make a difference (notice the AI kills).

 

Of course, there's also the question how TK implemented all this, but in general it would depend which strategies you would use during combat. It's also worth noting that it was determined after testing that no definite conclusion could be reached which aircraft was superior since "these two aircraft should never be enemies. The choice is a matter of taste".

 

Any apparent superiority of one aircraft over the other should most likely be attributed to pilot training (or the lack thereof).

Edited May 21, 2010 by Gocad

[+guyran]

Agreeable, Gocad.

What do you think on wingmen's AI.

Did you try the first unbalanced mission?

[+Gocad]

That particular mission? No, I didn't. To be honest I'm just following the this topic and keep wondering, what is exactly the issue here?

 

I think TK already explained it on the the TW forum that the Spitfire is simply better suited for the kind of combat the AI seems to prefer. That in mind and the constant AI weirdness that happens all the time, it's not really surprising that P-51 has a hard time in the SF world against the Spitfire.

[+guyran]

I think TK already explained it on the the TW forum that the Spitfire is simply better suited for the kind of combat the AI seems to prefer. That in mind and the constant AI weirdness that happens all the time, it's not really surprising that P-51 has a hard time in the SF world against the Spitfire.

 

The main problem with TK's AI for the Mustang is that, instead of applying energy air fight tactics, as 'normal' P-51 pilot would do, the AI pilot play into the advantage of the spit, starting a slow turning fight.

No wonder than that the P-51 is like 'meat on the table' in this sim, unlike RL I believe.

I myself couldn't survive my first unbalanced mission like Gr.Viper and Stary did and RTB.

In the second balanced missions, when I've changed the AI only, but not my dogfight tactics, I could survive the mission to tell the story.

You can learn a lot on the AI problem in SF2, if you do try the first mission.

Edited May 21, 2010 by guyran

[+Brain32]

The Brits did test the Spitfire IX against a Mustang III (that's the P-51C, which was not that much different compared to the P-51D) and found that while the Mustang had a better high altitude performance, was faster and had of course a superior endurance, the Spitfire had an edge in terms of turning and roll rate. The Spitfire IX also climbs faster, but is behind the Mustang in a dive.

 

Regarding the armament, well the Spitfire has two 20mm cannons, which do make a difference-

 

Everything is cool, just a small correction here, Spit quite certainly didn't have an edge in roll rate as she was one of the worst in that department among all ww2 planes while P-51's were among the best...

 

Other than that, Spitfire should completely eat a P-51(and pretty much any other ww2 plane of the ETO) in sustained turning, huge eliptical wings and a good P/W - one just can't miss with that.

Also it had quite a large (sustained)climb rate advantage over the P-51.

I think you guys are right, AI simply can't or rarely does use BnZ tactics properly and that's why they get slaughtered.

I even tried to lead them through the whole fight, attack/rejoin/attack etc. but no use, they would just stick to the spit, slow down and goodbye..