GuidanceType explained somewhere?

[squid 21]

Looking for an explanation of what kind of weapon guidance each value of GuidanceType (weapondata.ini) corresponds to. (There are i think 12 types?)

 

Thanks :)

Edited January 9, 2011 by squid

[squid 21]

To ask also ..

 

1. How are the antiship missiles used ?

2. And how are the stand-off / cruise missiles used ? (apache, storm shadow, Jsow etc)

[+EricJ 4,248]

Anti-ship missiles are what's called "CGR": and use the Ground Mapping radar function. Simply load them up and while hunting for ships you press the E key to lock on to the target. Once you lock on you are generally in range to engage (I could be wrong but it should model radar cross section of the ship) you fire and it homes on the target.

 

JSOW is GPS guided.while the Apache is TV Homing. I just had the Weapons Editor open (hint hint) and looked at the files myself and I'm sure Storm Shadow is the same, but you can go to the Thirdwire site, download the latest Weapons Editor and a lot of these questions can be answered with that.

[squid 21]

1. Now which one of the two AM-39 in the screenshots is most effective and modern ? (i am not sure the dates are accurate)

 

2. What exactly are

 

- Semi-Auto Command guidance

- Inertial Homing

- Radio Command Guidance

- Beam Riding

 

both in RL and in the SF2 gameplay ?

 

3. Which lines in the <XYZ Weapon>_data.ini define the options like Terminal Guidance (what is that?), IFF interogator, Target Memory etc? Except for the "GuidanceType" line i haven't been able to spot other lines related to Guidance details ...

 

4. Shouldnt weapons like Apache, Taurus, Scalp-EG, Storm Shadow have a different than EO/TV guidance system? Maybe GPS or Inertial Homing (is that an independent 'fire & forget' INS guiding system?) ? Wouldnt that be closer to the RL role and characteristics of those kind of cruise missiles?

 

I hope someone out there has the patience lol

Edited January 9, 2011 by squid

[Fubar512 1,350]

1. Now which one of the two AM-39 in the screenshots is most effective and modern ? (i am not sure the dates are accurate)

 

None of them. In order to behave somewhat realisticly (that is, the ability to hit targets over the horizon), you must make them ARMs, and add radars to each ship-type.

[+EricJ 4,248]

1. Now which one of the two AM-39 in the screenshots is most effective and modern ? (i am not sure the dates are accurate)

 

2. What exactly are

 

- Semi-Auto Command guidance

- Inertial Homing

- Radio Command Guidance

- Beam Riding

 

both in RL and in the SF2 gameplay ?

 

3. Which lines in the <XYZ Weapon>_data.ini define the options like Terminal Guidance (what is that?), IFF interogator, Target Memory etc? Except for the "GuidanceType" line i haven't been able to spot other lines related to Guidance details ...

 

4. Shouldnt weapons like Apache, Taurus, Scalp-EG, Storm Shadow have a different than EO/TV guidance system? Maybe GPS or Inertial Homing (is that an independent 'fire & forget' INS guiding system?) ? Wouldnt that be closer to the RL role and characteristics of those kind of cruise missiles?

 

I hope someone out there has the patience lol

 

 

2. SACLOS means you have to keep the crosshair on the target in real life in order for it to hit (TOW, HOT, Dragon) and had wires trailing behind them while it flew. Essentially the weapon automatically flew but still required human control. Today's weapons like the Javelin and equivalents only require a lock. As far as SF2 Gameplay I've never played with it so I have no clue if it really makes any difference other than restricted firing arcs or the like.

 

Inertial Homing = the weapon has a database of the terrain the weapon is to fly (Tomahawk, ALCM, ACM, so on), not modeled in SF series as a whole

 

Radio Command Guidance= Requires a radar to lock onto the target, and provides mid-course and terminal data (I'm assuming while locked the radar is "painting" the target for this) for the missile, same as in real life.

 

Beam Riding is laser-guided and in real life requires a laser designator and also in real life (best example would be Laser Maverick, Bofors RBS70, Hellfire, etc.)

 

3. I'm not sure but may be encoded into the Weapondata.dat file that is associated with that weapon so when the game reads that file, it applies those values without putting them on the appropriate Data.ini

 

4. Perhaps because SF series doesn't properly model the terrain following flight characteristics of a cruise missile which realistically game-wise point and shoot.

Edited January 9, 2011 by EricJ

[squid 21]

3. Weapon editor presents information like those screenshots (Terminal PoP-Up, etc) for 3d party weapons that i just throw the files in the weapons folder. I guess the weapondata.dat file is somewhere inside its cat file and includes only the stock weaponry? And where Weapon Editor gets this information from ?

 

4. I found those Storm Shadow family missiles have EO (5) as guidance system. I am going to try when i have time, but just had to ask anyways, if i altered it to 3 (CGR - "Semi-Auto Command guided") or 7 (inertial homing) will it work ? Will it work in same distances? or will lose range? or will not guide at all ? etc - I also guess theres no such as GPS in SF2 yet, right?

 

 

2. why Beam Riding is separate from Laser Guidance in the Weapon Editor?

 

 

What would be the suggested method of the ones available (EO/TV is one?) to model in SF2 a stand-off (long range) A/G precision fire and forget weapon? Either targeting ship or ground target. What would be the way to choose for a weapon ini file to ensure long range fire and forget accurate hit ?

 

Btw, where do we set what kind of missions an aircraft can take? anti-ship, sead, etc

[FrankD 7]

Looking for an explanation of what kind of weapon guidance each value of GuidanceType (weapondata.ini) corresponds to. (There are i think 12 types?)

Thanks :)

It may require a crosschecking as it's based on a doc file named "STRIKE FIGHTERS – PROJECT 1: INFO" revised in 2003 and have been updated by comparing the WeaponData.ini against the WeaponEditor:

In WeaponsData.INI the line GuidanceType= defines the method of operation of the weapon.

• GuidanceType=0 None (ie Dumb bombs/unguided rockets)
• GuidanceType=1 Wire Guided (ie TOW)
• GuidanceType=2 Radio Command Guided (ie AS-30)
• GuidanceType=3 Semi-Auto Command Guided (ie Javelin SAM)
• GuidanceType=4 Laser Guided (ie GBU-12)*
• GuidanceType=5 TV Homing (ie Walleye)*
• GuidanceType=6 Imaging Infrared Homing (ie AGM15 D/F/G, GBU-15)*
• GuidanceType=7 Inertial Homing (ie Exocet, Kormoran, Sea Eagle, ASMP, Apache)
• GuidanceType=8 GPS Homing (ie GBU-31/32)*
• GuidanceType=9 Anti Radiation (ie AGM-45/88, Martel, Kh-28)
• GuidanceType=10 Heat Seaking (ie Sidewinder)
• GuidanceType=11 Beam Riding (ie SA-2)
• GuidanceType=12 Semi-Active Radar Homing (ie Sparrow, SA-6)
• GuidanceType=13 Active Radar Homing (ie Amraam)

Please note that bombs are, in the WeaponEditor, limited to GuidanceType denoted by an asterisk, while missiles can have any form of guidance.

Edit:

the old doc file is also quoted in the SPF1's KB, maybe that it could be updated.

http://combatace.com...4422#entry44422

3. Weapon editor presents information like those screenshots (Terminal PoP-Up, etc) for 3d party weapons that i just throw the files in the weapons folder. I guess the weapondata.dat file is somewhere inside its cat file and includes only the stock weaponry? And where Weapon Editor gets this information from ?

You are right, the WEAPONDATA.INI file, which can be extracted from the ObjectData001.cat file, only includes the stock weapons.

The WeaponEditor seems to check the mod folder, since it does allow one to pick the "Saved Game Folder" to work on.

4. I found those Storm Shadow family missiles have EO (5) as guidance system. I am going to try when i have time, but just had to ask anyways, if i altered it to 3 (CGR - "Semi-Auto Command guided") or 7 (inertial homing) will it work ? Will it work in same distances? or will lose range? or will not guide at all ? etc - I also guess theres no such as GPS in SF2 yet, right?

I assume that Inertial and GPS Guidance only works on "mission target", as in a Strike Mission as I'm not sure that a pilot can modify on the fly such parameters.

2. why Beam Riding is separate from Laser Guidance in the Weapon Editor?

I'm gonna quote Wikipedia on this one as it's formulated in a much more understandable manner that I could write myself:

Radar was the most common form of SACLOS signals in early systems, because, in the anti-aircraft role the target is typically being hit by a radar signal anyway. However, a beam-riding missile flies directly at the target, which is often inefficient for a high-speed target like an aircraft. For this reason, most anti-aircraft missiles follow their own route to the target, and do not "ride" the beam.

 

A more modern use of beam-riding uses a laser illuminator pointed by the operator. This illuminates the target, and the missile head has a detector for the frequency of light emitted by the laser and can therefore guide itself to the target. This is also referred to as semi-active laser homing, by analogy with semi-active radar homing.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SACLOS

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam_riding

 

What would be the suggested method of the ones available (EO/TV is one?) to model in SF2 a stand-off (long range) A/G precision fire and forget weapon? Either targeting ship or ground target. What would be the way to choose for a weapon ini file to ensure long range fire and forget accurate hit ?

In NF4, the AM-39 Exocet is set with an Inertial Guidance with Target Memory checked, I assume that it would make it as, if I understand it correctly, it would mean that once a target is designated to the missile, it remember its position and is able to get there on its own.

Btw, where do we set what kind of missions an aircraft can take? anti-ship, sead, etc

in the aicraft's DATA.ini file, there's a block named "[MissionData]" in which you can set its PrimaryRoles and SecondaryRoles... BUT in the Campaign's DATA.INI, one can also set the MissionChance for a given squadron, actually setting the aicraft's operational role.

Edited January 9, 2011 by FrankD

[+EricJ 4,248]

3. Weapon editor presents information like those screenshots (Terminal PoP-Up, etc) for 3d party weapons that i just throw the files in the weapons folder. I guess the weapondata.dat file is somewhere inside its cat file and includes only the stock weaponry? And where Weapon Editor gets this information from ?

 

4. I found those Storm Shadow family missiles have EO (5) as guidance system. I am going to try when i have time, but just had to ask anyways, if i altered it to 3 (CGR - "Semi-Auto Command guided") or 7 (inertial homing) will it work ? Will it work in same distances? or will lose range? or will not guide at all ? etc - I also guess theres no such as GPS in SF2 yet, right?

 

 

2. why Beam Riding is separate from Laser Guidance in the Weapon Editor?

 

 

What would be the suggested method of the ones available (EO/TV is one?) to model in SF2 a stand-off (long range) A/G precision fire and forget weapon? Either targeting ship or ground target. What would be the way to choose for a weapon ini file to ensure long range fire and forget accurate hit ?

 

Btw, where do we set what kind of missions an aircraft can take? anti-ship, sead, etc

 

3. which was an uneducated guess... not sure where it's 'read" now so needless to say the values are understood by the game (I don't know how sorry) but they are.

 

4. Yes there is GPS, such as JSOW, JDAM, etc.

 

2. Good question Maybe there's some distinction that TK makes that's different from the real world (such as the SA-2 a "Beam rider" which its not, as it's a radar guided SAM, but "rides" the radar beam would be the best approximation of it)

Edited January 9, 2011 by EricJ

[FrankD 7]

Some details to add, from the horse's mouth:

 

 

» Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:26 am

(...)Guidance law, I have two sets, direct navigation and proportional navigation, depending on the seeker type. All-aspect IRM and Semi- and Active Homing radar missile use proportional navigation. All others (tail-aspect IRM, beam-rider, and all air-to-ground weapons) use direct navigation (which results in tail-chase).

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=29532#p29532

[Guest HoneyFox]

Some details to add, from the horse's mouth:

 

 

 

http://bbs.thirdwire...?p=29532#p29532

 

I once hoped that the guidance law (pure-pursuit or proportional-nav) can be set up in weapon editor for each weapon separately instead of being bound to the missile guidance type.

 

 

but TK seemed to have ignored/rejected this idea... which made me feel pity.

 

 

[squid 21]

It appears my questions are result of lack of knowledge mainly regarding terminology. So its about filling the gaps in basic weapon technology stuff details. One recent clarification for me from here is that beam-riding refers to the weapon "riding" also a radar beam and not necessarily a laser beam only. I never thought of radar emissions in the form of beam, more like rather wide angle electromagnetic pulse waves transmission and reflection reception.

 

questions :

 

1. In Laser beam-riding the weapon slides on the beam axis. How the weapon in this case senses the laser beam ? ( is it just the head detecting the laser reflection on the target?) And If the target is illuminated by a source located at a way off different direction than the weapon release source, what do we have in that case? A different type of laser tracking head detecting and following a laser beam reflection ? (are laser beam reflections having the form of a wide-spread radiance or a straight single beam ?)

 

2. what is the proportional navigation group exactly? why called proportional ?

 

3. in Semi-active homing, the communication between the weapon and the homing radar is of radio type? How is the type of guidance called where an external radar have to continuously guide the weapon till impact? Is there a case of weapons where the external radar illuminates with its transmissions the target and the weapon (instead of radio type communication with the radar carrier) just picks up with its own radar "reflection" receiver, the reflection from the target?

Edited January 14, 2011 by squid

[Fubar512 1,350]

3: The missile's seeker is passive, and relies on the reflected radar energy from the target and follows it, though being "semi-active, it compensates for target motion, or "lead" (beam riders do not). The launch platform must still illuminate the target, all the way through to impact.

[+EricJ 4,248]

It appears my questions are result of lack of knowledge mainly regarding terminology. So its about filling the gaps in basic weapon technology stuff details. One recent clarification for me from here is that beam-riding refers to the weapon "riding" also a radar beam and not necessarily a laser beam only. I never thought of radar emissions in the form of beam, more like rather wide angle electromagnetic pulse waves transmission and reflection reception.

 

questions :

 

1. In Laser beam-riding the weapon slides on the beam axis. How the weapon in this case senses the laser beam ? ( is it just the head detecting the laser reflection on the target?) And If the target is illuminated by a source located at a way off different direction than the weapon release source, what do we have in that case? A different type of laser tracking head detecting and following a laser beam reflection ? (are laser beam reflections having the form of a wide-spread radiance or a straight single beam ?)

 

2. what is the proportional navigation group exactly? why called proportional ?

 

3. in Semi-active homing, the communication between the weapon and the homing radar is of radio type? How is the type of guidance called that an external radar have to continuously guide the weapon til impact? Is there a chance of weapons where the external radar illuminates with its transmissions the target and the weapon (instead of radio type communication with the radar carrier) just picks up with its own radar "reflection" receiver, the reflection from the target?

 

I think for 1 and 3 you're just reading into it man. LGBs or Laser guided missile never actually literally "ride" the beam. It's just a term man and semi-active RADAR homing does that, the weapon actively seeks the transmitted radar signals therefore requiring the radar. KInda like the TOW description above.

 

And I'd Google proportional nav as you can find that answer better through self discovery as at one time I could tell you but now I just plain don't remember.

[FrankD 7]

How is the type of guidance called that an external radar have to continuously guide the weapon til impact? Is there a chance of weapons where the external radar illuminates with its transmissions the target and the weapon (instead of radio type communication with the radar carrier) just picks up with its own radar "reflection" receiver, the reflection from the target?

As far as I know, as I'm no specialist, this is a radar beam-riding stricto sensu, as the (early?) SA-2 were working .

About your other questions Squid, I would be glad to vulgarize missile guidance for you if only I would have a clear view and a deep knowledge but I have not so I prefer to not make things sounds more complicated than they by

What I would advise you is to that a look at an article about that topic on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_missile

Yeah, I known, the pedia is often not that authoritative but it offers somewhat understandable answers to your questions. ;)

Best regards

[squid 21]

google / wiki, right. Ahhh there we are, at least about the difference between beam-riding and semi-active , wery clarifying :

 

The basic concept of SARH is that since almost all detection and tracking systems consist of a radar system' date=' duplicating this hardware on the missile itself is redundant. In addition, the resolution of a radar is strongly related to the physical size of the antenna, and in the small nose cone of a missile there isn't enough room to provide the sort of accuracy needed for guidance. Instead the larger radar dish on the ground or launch aircraft will provide the needed signal and tracking logic, and the missile simply has to listen to the signal reflected from the target and point itself in the right direction. Additionally, the missile will listen rearward to the launch platform's transmitted signal as a reference, enabling it to avoid some kinds of radar jamming distractions offered by the target.

 

Contrast this with beam riding systems, in which the radar is pointed at the target and the missile keeps itself centered in the beam by listening to the signal at the rear of the missile body. In the SARH system the missile listens for the reflected signal at the nose, and is still responsible for providing some sort of “lead” guidance. The disadvantages are twofold: One is that a radar signal is “fan shaped”, growing larger, and therefore less accurate, with distance. This means that the beam riding system is not accurate at long ranges, while SARH is largely independent of range and grows more accurate as it approaches the target, or the source of the reflected signal it listens for. Another requirement is that a beam riding system must accurately track the target at high speeds, typically requiring one radar for tracking and another “tighter” beam for guidance. The SARH system needs only one radar set to a wider pattern.[/quote']

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-active_radar_homing

 

 

(reading on)

Edited January 14, 2011 by squid

[MajorKong 4]

Things you don't want to hear your EWO say -  "Pilot, I've got missile guidance!"