Mig-21 variants

[pyro]

Hi all,

 

Just wondering about the many variants of Mig-21 in game. Started the excellent Arab Six Day War campaign for SF2:I in the Mig-21F-13, found it very pleasant to fly ('normal' FM) and an excellent match for the Mirage IIIc in terms of maneuverability (although the ammo count is a very low 30 rounds; historical I know!). Realising the Mig-21PFM had more rounds in the centreline pod I started the same campaign again, and this time had a much harder time keeping on those Mirages six. So in real life and in game, did successive versions become less maneuverable, especially in the horizontal? Was this because of increasing weight? Also, it would be interesting to hear any opinions on which versions were most 'pleasant' to fly verses which were most combat effective in this theatre (again both IRL and in game).

 

ps I'd also like to take the opportunity to thank the myriad of modders out there; I've only got SF2:I/SF2:V merged but the amount of fun I've had recently in campaigns from Suez to Lebanon to Rolling Thunder to modern day Israel is almost obscene. Bravo.

[exhausted]

The F was a low weight fighter interceptor with little to no all-weather capabilities. The PF was a straight-line interceptor without a cannon, but it had a small search radar and some all weather capability. Also, beam-riding missile compatibility was added. The added weight also brought an uprated engine. The PFM got a slightly better radar and the last ones got the cannon pod. Also added were advanced ground attack capabilities in the form of the Kh-66 air to surface missiles. The Ms and MFs got successively bigger engines and better avionics, as well as new radar. The new engine helped greatly with the maneuverability of the heavier MiGs.

 

I think the most pleasant MiG-21 in game is the F-13 and the M/MF. The PF(M) is a dog that is suited for straight intercepts of unescorted bombers. I believe that the MiGs that were complained about doing high speed 'sneak attacks' over Vietnam were of this type and had no choice but to run after their missiles were expended.

[+Gepard]

The 30 rounds ammo load of the MiG-21F13 in game is wrong. They had 60 rounds in reality.

The engines of the MiG-21F13, PF, PFS, PFM, S and M are the same. (R-11F-300). The R-13F300 came withe the SM, SMT, MF and MT. R-25 was the engine of the MiG-21bis.

RP-21 radar was used in the F - MF. RP-22 was used in S, SM, SMT and bis.

The use of Kh-23 and 66 with the MiG-21 is a rumour. Never seen operational service.

[+Spillone104]

Regarding the Kh-66 probably was more a "paper" weapon and when you see photos of 2nd generation MiG-21 with RS-2U (AA-1 Alkali) is because they used them air to ground weapons. And basically the Kh-66 is an RS-2U with a proper heavy warhead and radio command.

[Toryu]

So in real life and in game, did successive versions become less maneuverable, especially in the horizontal? Was this because of increasing weight?

 

In addition to what Gepard already pointed out:

The MiG-21 contiuously got heavier and heavier, thus increasing wing-loading without signifigantly increasing thrust. Even the R-13 didn't provide enough of a thrust-bump to get the MiG back to the F-13's overall maneuverability (though the F-13 hab signifigant limitations; more on that later).

The bis in turn had the R-25 which had a special combat-regime getting thrust up to the mid 90s of kN, which gave this model quite a remarkable emergency-power if the poo hit the fan.

All in all, most pilots would propably agree on the F-13 being most pleasurable to fly, but the later models as the more useful during actual fighting (more pylons, better payload, more A-G ordnance, etc).

Although propably not related, it seems noteworthy the Chinese built only a couple J-7III (MiG-21MF derviative), but a LOT of J-7s with F-13 and related airframes.

 

Generally, the Mirage is inferrior to the MiG in sustained turn, as it's huge Delta is gonna bleed-off it's energy very quickly.

This is why israeli pilots preferred to go vertical and generally tried to keep engagements short.

 

Getting back to the F-13:

 

Albeit being a very capable design (proven and supported by western trials), it has very signifigant limitations, a pilot has to work around:

 

- the engine has a VERY long spool-up time, being as much as 11-14s for idle-military

- the engine (Real Life) was very prone to compressor-stall when firing a K-13 missile

- the aircraft was limited to below 600kias below 15000ft (Real Life) due to very high control-forces and buffeting

- very good controllability at very low speeds

 

An andvantage concerning the engine would be it's relatively low compressor-stall tendency under any circumstance (other than shooting a missile). The ATAR of the Mirage (haven't seen any data to back this up, though) supposedly wasn't that much of a carefree-engine in comparison (Real Life).

Edited January 21, 2011 by Toryu

[+Gepard]

Regarding the Kh-66 probably was more a "paper" weapon and when you see photos of 2nd generation MiG-21 with RS-2U (AA-1 Alkali) is because they used them air to ground weapons.

 

Dont know what other Air Forces had done, but in the LSK (East German Air Force) the RS-2US was only used as air to air weapon. And then only for bad weather conditions. It was not the most reliable missile, but into the clouds it was much more effective then a IR seeker missile.

[pyro]

Thanks for all the responses, some very interesting reading there. I've gone back to flying the F-13, she's a little rocket ship to be sure. A good match for the Mirages.