OT Thank you Adam Telfer

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Here is my little tribute, to the man who brought us the Highly acclaimed Border Collie Sheepdog.

(If you dont like Dogs..I wont ask you to waste six minutes of your life)

 

But if you do...please enjoy a quite few minutes of reflection...I hope you like my video

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8tTpVGPpwo

[gaw 5]

UK.....drop dead lovely. From one besotted dog owner to another.....thank you! So cool to see these dogs at work and so focused. Here in NYC you can go for days...even weeks...without seeing a toy Poodle...guide a taxi to the curb! I like your view better....maybe one day!!!

[rabu 9]

Great video, and interesting story, thanks! My Whippet, Raul, is also a relatively "young" dog breed, but he wouldn't know what to do with a sheep.

[Shiloh 12]

Great piece! My kids have been watching Shaun the Sheep non-stop for the last 3 days so this one really struck home.

[Bullethead 12]

Here is my little tribute, to the man who brought us the Highly acclaimed Border Collie Sheepdog.

 

I have one of these mutts myself, but I have to disagree with the claims made in this video. The "Border Collie" is the only recognized breed that has absolutely zero defined physical traits. It's totally based on behavior. Either it is an able accomplice in the midnight moving other people's sheep from 1 side of the Border to the other and thus qualifies as being a Border Collie, no matter what it looks like, or it's not prone to rustling, in which case it isn't a Border Collie, even if it looks just like Lassie.

 

The breed of course dates back to the 1500s, when stealing sheep was the main business on both sides of the Border. Such raids, covering dozens of miles a day, are why true (as in behaviorally defined) Border Collies HAVE to run many miles per day or go insane. That's what they were bred to do. So maybe "Auld Hemp" was the 1st one recognized as the progenetor of the breed, but "breeds" as such were only really recognized in the mid-late 1800s anyway. Prior to that, there'd just been dogs with job-related names, and if they could do the job, they were of that type. Sheepdogs, wolfhounds, bulldogs, boarhounds, ratters, etc. So there were "Border Collies" long before Auld Hemp.

 

My dog has never seen a sheep in her life but can tell that deer are members of the same family, and does her best to rustle them for me. She can give deer a 50m head start and catch them in 100m. Deer, unfortunately, haven't been bred to listen to sheepdogs, so are practically impossible for her to herd, but she tries her best :).

 

Smart critters, too. Out of the box they know tactical hand signals, the mere concept of which most dogs will never recognize in their lives, plus they're born able to understand English, Gaelic, and Scots with equal fluency (at least when referring to tactical, sheep-rustling activities). Latin, French, and Cajun commands don't faze them at all. Just to see how thievish my dog is, I've also learned the some of the same phrases in the non-Indo-European languages Hebrew and Choctaw, and the dog responded equally well on 1st hearing them.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

There have always been sheepdogs of sorts, yes...but the (now to be known as Border Collie)..in it's genetic form we know today, is definately known to have come from Old Hemp.

This may merely be a classification issue with the Kennel Club...but sheepdogs up to that point, were a motley crue...crossbreeds etc...Many early Sheepdogs were bruisers...used to roughly keep sheep in one area..but mainly to see off Rustlers and other undesirables.

 

If you're going to classify a breed of Dog..you have to start somewhere...And Old Hemp is as good a place as anywhere...the simple fact is...A collie, in it's recognisable breed form today...did not exist prior to 1893

 

I do of course appreciate your point, that Adam Telfer did not wave a magic wand, and Hey Presto..Border Collie..and that it has been created over time by selective breeding by Shepherds and Stockmen.

 

However, I'm afraid, I have to take issue with you on the lack of physical traits, seperating it from other 'sheepdogs'

 

The BC has got a trait not found in any other dog in the World.

They can crouch, and stalk like a Cat...due to an inbred seperation between the Shoulder blades...no other Dog can do that (to my Knowledge)...and of course...the Infamous Collie 'eye' which they use to intimidate Sheep when herding them.

 

Not of course also forgetting...the one individual Collie, who can understand over 1200 words! (more than some people I know)

 

Your Collie certainly seems are smart fella

Edited October 20, 2011 by UK_Widowmaker

[Bullethead 12]

If you're going to classify a breed of Dog..you have to start somewhere...And Old Hemp is as good a place as anywhere...the simple fact is...A collie, in it's recognisable breed form today...did not exist prior to 1893

 

I do of course appreciate your point, that Adam Telfer did not wave a magic wand, and Hey Presto..Border Collie..and that it has been created over time by selective breeding by Shepherds and Stockmen.

 

Sure he did. The selection of Auld Hemp as THE ORIGINAL BORDER COLLIE was purely arbitrary.

 

Up until the mid-late 1800s, there weren't really any or many "breeds" of dogs as we think of them today, with names like pug, poodle, Irish setter, or Border collie, because the idea of keeping a dog for a "pet" hadn't really caught on except among a few rich people. Dogs were livestock, retained for some practical (usually economic) purpose. Thus, they were named for the jobs they did: sheepdogs, wolfhounds, bulldogs, ratters, etc. Nobody really cared what they looked like so long as they could do the job they were hired for, just as the color of a cow has no bearing on its ability to convert the minimum amount of pasture into the maximum amount of milk and meat.

 

In the particular case of the Border, for centuries if not millennia people had been using dogs to move sheep (legally or illegally). So there was a large population of dogs originally from elsewhere that had been continuously mixed together all this time to produce excellent herders. Nobody cared what they looked like any more than any other working dog. Thus, while the demands of the job set the general size, shape, and other gross anatomical features, these dogs retained tremendous variety (as they still do) in unimportant detail features like hair length and color, eye color, and facial characteristics. What the shepherds cared about was herding behavior. These dogs were the local sheepdogs.

 

It just so happened that in 1893, one pup named Auld Hemp was, by pure chance, dealt a particular set of unimportant detail features that were quite pleasing to the eye. But he was, in reality, exactly the same, genetically, as all his neighbors, and indistinguishable behaviorally. However, he was born at a time when the then-new business of breeding dogs purely for looks and hanging made-up names on them, for sale as pets, was booming. So Telfer cashed in on this. IOW, what the Kennel Club recognizes as a "Border Collie", based on looks, is purely a product of marketing. I'm sure there were other dogs just down the road that looked pretty similar to Auld Hemp, but were robbed of similar fame by having less-entrepreneurial owners.

 

However, I'm afraid, I have to take issue with you on the lack of physical traits, seperating it from other 'sheepdogs'

 

The BC has got a trait not found in any other dog in the World.

They can crouch, and stalk like a Cat...due to an inbred seperation between the Shoulder blades...no other Dog can do that (to my Knowledge)...and of course...the Infamous Collie 'eye' which they use to intimidate Sheep when herding them.

 

The unique skeletal features of Border collies didn't happen overnight in 1893. They are a feature of all of those Border sheepdogs, evolved over countless generations for the specific purpose of herding sheep.

 

These days, there are 2 "standards" of the "Border collie" breed. There's the new and contrived "Auld Hemp" standard used by the Kennel Club, which is based on appearance. Then there's the "real" standard used by the International Sheepdog Society, which is based solely on behavior. The ISDS standard is newer than the KC standard, but is actually just a codification of the real standard that Auld Hemp himself was bred to: the ability to herd sheep in a particular manner. It was created as a reaction to the fear that the looks-breeders would destroy the working qualities of the dogs.

 

Bottom line is, the ISDS standard includes Auld Hemp and all his contemporaries, and all their descendants, so long as they can do the job. The KC standard focuses only on the descendants of Auld Hemp and only cares about how much they resemble him.

 

Your Collie certainly seems are smart fella

 

Yup, she's pretty smart, which is a result not only of her genes but also the constant training she's received from her real owner, my cat, who is even smarter. The cat (Gus, full name Hurricane Gustav) raised the dog (Speckles) from a pup to be his partner in crime, mostly as muscle but also as a ready scapegoat. Even with the run of 130 acres, they get into all sorts of trouble around the house. Because they're both black and white, I call them "Heckle and Jeckle" after the troublesome cartoon magpies of my youth.

 

Probably the only reason I haven't made a set of bookends out of them yet is because they're so amusing to watch. When not involved in some sort of devilment, they wrestle constantly. Gus is thereby the strongest cat I've ever met, capable of tackling the much bigger dog.

 

Here's a pic of them trying to look innocent.

[Flyby PC 23]

Just my tuppenceworth, a Collie is always a sheepdog, but a sheepdog isn't always a Collie, but if I wanted a good sheepdog, I'd buy a Collie.

 

Here are my boys. The big fella is for rounding up lions, and the little fella for rounding down the population of anything smaller than he is.

 

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

BH...Looking through what you've said...I can't really see much difference between what we have both said? (if you get my drift?)

 

Telfer never bred his dog to be a show dog...he was a Farmer...his interest was purely for a working sheepdog...I think it just so happened, that the KC had just really started, with their Victorian Obsession of categorising breeds.

 

Even today, there is quite a gulf between 'Working Sheepdogs'...and Pet ones...certainly between Farmers..who, although very fond of their Dogs...are using them for purpose, and 'fanciers' if you like, who keep them as pets. Though they are really one and the same...A Border Collie

 

I take on board, and agree wholeheartedly with your comments regarding the breed however.

(My Video BTW..was directed at Border Collies period...Not for Looks, or Herding ability...just the Dog itself)...it's a shame it hasn't come across as such

 

Though, I felt it made the point that The Border Collie, regardless of looks (and some are pretty ugly) is the penultimate sheepdog in the world today..which, through generations of refinement, culminated in old hemp...(probably by timing)...and the subsequent dogs we have nowadays.....after all, a herding dog, that isn't a Border Collie,is as rare as rocking horse sh*t

 

And FlyPC?....Gotta love those Guys!!!!!!

Edited October 20, 2011 by UK_Widowmaker

[Bullethead 12]

Here are my boys. The big fella is for rounding up lions, and the little fella for rounding down the population of anything smaller than he is.

 

Look like they have the homestead under control :). What do you do with the lions once you've got them rounded up? I've always heard that "herding cats" is a metaphore for an impossible job, so I'm quite impressed you've got a dog that can do it .

 

 

I take on board, and agree wholeheartedly with your comments regarding the breed however. (My Video BTW..was directed at Border Collies period...Not for Looks, or Herding ability...just the Dog itself)...it's a shame it hasn't come across as such

 

Well, they're remarkable critters, which is why they're the only dogs allowed under my roof . But I'm so practical-minded that my sole conception of beauty is something perfectly adapted to do its job. Thus, I side with the ISDS on how to define a Border collie, so the video rubbed me the wrong way by saying it all started with Auld Hemp. My whole point was to say that practically every dog alive along the Border in 1893 (and doubtless for at least several centuries previously) probably met the ISDS definition of Border collie, so that Auld Hemp was only special to those who want a pedigree on file.

 

One of the things that points to the breed being much older than Auld Hemp is that a perfect run on the sheepdog trial is conducted in complete silence, with the shepherd just giving the occasional hand signal. Surely this is of benefit only to somebody trying to sneak off with somebody else's livestock. And if your gang of murderous rustlers (aka the typical Borderer clan) is making off with the livestock of an equally violent rival gang (as was always the case on the Border), you'd want a dog tactically smart enough do the job mostly on autopilot, freeing your henchmen to be ready to deal with any pursuit. In fact, I can't see how a Border raid could have been accomplished without sheepdogs as skilled as those we see today, so I figure Border dogs of the 1500s would have met the ISDS standard as well. This implies that the behavior's roots going back much deeper in time.