British Med Fleet Gibraltar 1938

[Flyby PC 23]

Just been learning some things about my Dad's picture of the British Fleet anchored in Gibraltar in 1938.

 

I'll spare you the dull searching information story, it interests me but won't you, but I recently found this site, and in particular some pictures in the Higginson Part 6 collection. There is a picture there taken by Jim Higginson from HMS Hood, of four capital ships which he names. I've checked the profiles of the ships to confirm, and I'm happy to say thats 6 of the big ships positively named in my dads pic. I now know HMS Rodney from her sistership HMS Nelson, HMS Warspite I hadn't a name for, but I thought HMS Malaya might have been been HMS Barham. I actually had HMS Royal Oak correct!!! Even Hood I thought I had right, but there is a very similar ship to Hood behind Hood, and still at sea.

 

Jim Higginson also has a picture of HMS Repulse with the red white and blue neutrality turret, so Repulse must be in there too somewhere...

 

I count at least three County Class heavy cruisers, I'm guessing that by the three funnels and size, but County class breaks down into three sub-classes, Kent London and Norkolk, and I can't tell class from class, nevermind ship from ship. Edit - London class had 2 funnels, so assuming these are either Kent Class or Norfolk class, there are 9 alternatives to pick.

 

I'm hoping some of the Hood veterans might recall some additional names.

 

The only slightly sour note is the picture Jim Higginson has of the fleet, and the fact it's taken from a similar viewpoint as my fathers picture. What this unfortunately has to mean is that my father wasn't flying over the fleet in his Swordfish as we always assumed, but the picture is taken from a vantage point on the Rock itself. That's a bit of a bummer, but I'll get over it, it's still a great picture. It actually solves two mysteries, - first, how he took such a good panorama shot while flying at speed, and second, why his logbook never mentioned flying over the whole fleet. Initially, we didn't even know where the picture was taken, and we all took it for given that the picture came from an aircraft.

 

I'm sorry the picture is so big, but it's just so you can read the names I've found out.

 

 

Woops forgot the link - http://www.hmshood.c.../higginson6.htm

 

This is good too - http://www.hmshood.c...l/percival2.htm Melville Percival has a picture with HMS Glorious berthed, whereas she is still at sea in my dad's pic.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Flyby PC

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Fascinating stuff m8

[gaw 5]

Marvelous shot!!! Thanks for posting it!

[Flyby PC 23]

Sobering thought...

 

Of the 17 ships I've managed to name, one was scrapped in 1938, but of the remaining 16, 6 were sunk during the war. That's 37.5% of those I've found out.

 

HMS Hood - Sunk by Bismark.

HMS Royal Oak.- Torpedoed Scapa Flo by U47 October 39.

HMS Glorious. - Sunk by Scharhort and Gneisenau June 40.

HMS Greyhound. Bombed by Ju87s off Crete May 41.

HMS Brazen, Sunk by air attack Dover July 40.

HMS Electra. Sink Feb 42 engaging Japanese light cruiser Jintsu and destroyer Asagumo. Badly hit, and abandoned ship after running out of ammunition.

 

When I look to the right of the picture and see a blur of 20+ destroyers and add it to all the other ships I haven't named yet, well,.... like I said, very sobering.

 

On the upside, ever heard of HMS Warspite? I hadn't. Google her - "The Grand Old Lady". Most battle honours awarded to any single ship in the Royal Navy from Jutland to Normandy and beyond. They were going to make her a Museum ship after the war but the bean counters said no, but while being towed away to Faslane for scrap, she slipped her tow and floundered on rocks, and subsequently defied all efforts to refloat her. She wasn't going for scrap and fought them all the way!

 

HMS Rodney was a battler too. Did her bit sinking Bismark beside King George V, and was there for Torch and D-Day. (King George V, and Prince of Wales MIGHT be in the picture too. Repulse almost certainly is because I've seen Repulse with the neutrality gun turrets. (I should start calling them gun houses apparently). That said, Repulse and Prince of Wales were sunk by the Japs in Dec 41).

 

Special mention for D-03 HMS Icarus - extended convoy duties and sank 4 U-boats.

 

Talk about history at your fingertips.

 

Edited October 24, 2011 by Flyby PC

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Funny you should mention HMS Warspite...as that ship was featured in a War Picture Library Annual, I had as a kid

[Flyby PC 23]

Ooooh! Oooo! Oooooh! Check this out! - http://colonialfilm.org.uk/node/3222

 

The film's no loner there, but read the synopsis!!! Gotta get me to the Imperial War Museum...

[33LIMA 972]

The Hood-like ship at sea behind HMS Hood is Repulse I believe. She and Renown were effectively shorter 'Hoods' with no 'X' turret, six 15 inch guns instead of eight. Repulse had more superstructure (mainly hangar I think) around the funnels, which stood prouder on Renown. Repulse did quite well for for such an old and un-modernised ship against the Japanese who sunk her, the episode where her pom-poms shot down two of the vic of 3 'Betty' torpedo-bombers which effectively did for her, was one of the most dramatic episodes of the battle.

Edited October 24, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Hauksbee 103]

Gotta get me to the Imperial War Museum...

I sometimes think everything worth knowing is tucked away at the Imperial War Museum.

[Flyby PC 23]

I think you're right Lima33. I've seen pictures of Repulse with coloured turrets, and if Repulse is in the picture, that's the only ship she can be.

 

I have Hospital ship, HMHT Maine.

 

The destroyer alongside Hood is apparently, H59 HMS Gallant, not H05 Greyhound, but the picture still looks more like H05 than H59, but I'll trust a report from someone there rather than a fuzzy picture..... or will I?

 

The report also says the two light grey County Class cruisers are 'most likely' Sussex and London. Hmmm. I've seen a separate picture with H59 Gallant tied alongside Sussex, - and not tied up beside Hood where H05 Greyhound is. The synopsis says Gallant is nearest to Hood, but that might be meaning of the two ships, Gallant and Sussex, Gallant is nearest Hood. That doesn't identify either County Class specifically, and there could even be more destroyers sitting on the other side completely out of shot. I think I might stick with H05 Greyhound for the moment... I also have conflicting reports about HMS London having two or three funnels. Confused? There are 5 County Class Cruisers with 3 funnels in the picture.... sigh.

 

The report goes on to say there are three Southampton class cruisers there, all in the Home Fleet Dark grey, and these are HMS Southhampton, Newcastle and Sheffield. I see four darker cruisers, one looks County Class, (behind the dodgy H43), two look similar, behind Foxhound and the one in front, and a third cruiser behind Forester which has two funnels, but doesn't look anything like the other two. (As I look, I have also just noticed that both Hood and Rodney have not 1 but 2 destroyers each tied alongside. They are doubled up). There is a third cruiser in light grey which looks similar to the two in dark grey, but it's different again, if you look at gap between the bridge and the first funnel. She also has a catapult aircraft.

 

I give up for now. Brain is worn out for today.....

 

Edit wait, wait, wait, that could be the third Southhampton Class cruiser still at the harbour mouth in front of Glorious....

Edited October 24, 2011 by Flyby PC

[Bullethead 12]

I've attached my identifications of the ships you hadn't labeled.

 

Starting at the top of the pecking order, the 2 unnamed BBs are definitely Queen Elizabeth class, veterants of Jutland. There were 5 of them. You've already correctly spotted Warspie and in 1938, both Queen Elizabeth and Valiant were undergoing reconstruction. Thus, the other 2 must be Barham (flagship of Evan-Thomas at Jutland, sunk by a U-boat in 1941, the explosive video of which we've all no doubt seen) and Malaya. It's impossible to tell which is which.

 

Battlecruisers: The "Hood-like" thing is definitely Repulse. She retained her tripods to the end and besides, Renown was undergoing reconstruction in 1938. In WW1, these ships were known as "Refit" and "Repair" due to their weak structure for their size. It's an open question as to which nickname went with which ship. Until all the WW1 vets died off, they argued this a lot. Repluse was sunk in 1941.

 

Heavy Cruisers: There are 5 "County-class" "treaty cruisers" present, which I've labeled A-E. To my eye, those not occluded by other ships are all 4 of the London-class, all of which survived the war. London was seriously reconstructed but that didn't start until the very end of 1938, so I figure this pic was taken just before she paid off. "County E" could be either a Kent or a Norfolk, my money being on the latter. If so, she'd be Norfolk herself or Dorsetshire. I believe her paintjob is more in keeping with the former.

 

Big Light Cruisers: These 4 are either Southamptons or Gloucesters, all very new ships. So new, in fact, that it's doubtful any of them were Gloucesters. So, odds are, you're seeing 4 out of 5 of the Southamptons, probably all of them but Birmingham, which was probably still working up after commissioning in November 1937. Of these 4, Southampton was sunk in 1941.

 

Small Light Cruisers: Here you have 2 members of the Arethusa-class. They're not Perths because their mainmasts are shorter than their foremasts, even though their stern awnings prevent counting 1 or 2 turrets aft. If I had to guess, I'd say they were the 2 older siblings, Arethusa and Galatea, both names famous from WW1. Of these, the latter was also sunk in 1941.

 

So, out of 16 more ships tentatively identified, probably 4 were sunk, all in 1941.

 

If I had the proper motivation, I could probably ID the hospital ship, but that would take a lot more beer than I've already consumed this evening .

[Dej 17]

Hearts of Oak... what a awesome panorama. Thanks for posting Flyby and thanks to BH for the extra information. I'd have suggested asking, as he's an expert, but he's already done it

[33LIMA 972]

The two battleships outside the harbour on the left are 'Woolworths', Royal Sovereign class not Malaya and Barham (which were QE class of course). While the latter pair didn't get the tower bridge conversion of Warspite (and later QE and Valiant) they did get those wide funnels where the previous two were trunked into one. The two in the pic have more slender funnels close abaft the bridge structure, one with a raked funnel cap which also suggests it's a 'Woolworth'. Not all the Royal Sovereigns had the Royal Oak's large tripod mainmast (the class's nameship had a slender mast when transferred to the Soviets in 1944).

 

Oh, for a decent WW2 surface warship simulator, to succeed 'Fighting Steel'! I'm not optimistic about World of Battleships, not into MP anyway,

 

Barham at Valetta in 1936:

 

Edited October 25, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Flyby PC 23]

Wow, that's superb BH, thanks a lot.

 

Is there a short cut to identify the cruiser types or just a good eye and experience?

 

Malaya is wrong, the Malaya inside the harbour is confirmed, but whatever ship it is looks Queen Elizabeth Class. Renown was refitting I understand. So that leaves the two QE Class battleships as either HMS Queen Elizabeth, Valiant, Barham, and Agincourt. I can probably confirm Barham is one of them, because she appears later in my Dads logbook so she was in the Med near the time, so the other has to be Elizabeth, Valiant or Agincourt.

 

Agincourt - Scrapped 1922.

Valiant - Taken into Portsmouth 1937 for reconstruction. Think the picture is March 1938, so I don't think it's Valiant.

Elizabeth.- Need to wait - tinternet playing up...

 

I did briefly wonder why there weren't any King George V Class, - George V and PoW, battleships - until I realised they hadn't been launched yet!!! Wow, that makes the sinking of Prince of Wales in 1941 pretty sore. Commissioned Jan 41, and sunk in December. Makes you realise the cost of these big ships was a big gamble. That also means that King George V's paint wasn't much drier than Bismarks when they met that fateful day, - I had no idea King George V was even newer than Bismark!!!.

[Flyby PC 23]

Back again. Ruddy internet. It freezes and 'Internet Explorer has stopped working', - I usually lose what I've written but at least it took my last post.

 

Yes, HMS Queen Elizabeth. - Not sure, but I think she was in the area. She was protecting the port of Algecirus from Republican bombing, but not sure when exactly, and Algecirus is in the Gibraltar basin. Looks good for the other Queen Elizabeth Class ship I think. The two ships at sea must be HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Barham.

 

 

EDIT THANKS too Lima 33. Your post wasn't up when I started writing. Internet is playing up badly this morning. May abort and come back later... That's interesting Lima, I didn't realise the neutral turrets began in 1936 but you are correct.

 

And - The Hospital Ship is HMHS Maine.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Flyby PC

[33LIMA 972]

For the 2 battleships outside the harbour, compare the spacing and profile of the funnel and bridge structure to the Royal Oak and the Mayala, inside the harbour. Even allowing for possible foreshortening, the two in the background are not QEs, they're both Royal Sovereign class- aka Revenge class.

 

I think Queen Elizabeth had started reconstruction ('37?) when this pic was taken.

 

Anyway thanks for sharing this magical panorama of an age long gone - I could pour over it for hours!

Edited October 25, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Flyby PC 23]

I think I'm inclined to agree again Lima, to me they look like sister ship not quite like any others in the picture. To my unskilled eye they look a little shorter than Queen Elizabeth Class, although they do bear a certain resemblance to Royal Oak.

[33LIMA 972]

Looks like one of the distant battleships - possibly the one with the raked funnel cap - is Revenge, see here, an account of her 1938 cruise including the visit to Gib:

 

http://www.naval-his...moirAndSo03.htm

 

you're quite right about the resemblance to Royal Oak, the three are sister ships, the 'Woolworth' class so called I gather because they were a cut-price follow-on class to the QE class.

Edited October 25, 2011 by 33LIMA

[33LIMA 972]

Some more info here, including this from a synposis of the film mentioned:

 

START 00:00:00 Title 'Pathscope Safety Film presents "Mediterranean 1938 1939"' superimposed over a still of the G Class destroyer HMS Glowworm (pennant number H92) in the Grand Harbour, Malta. On board the battleship HMS Warspite with spray breaking over the bow as she pitches up and down in rough seas. Intertitle 'Gibraltar'. Europa Point and the town of Gibraltar beneath the Rock of Gibraltar filmed from a fast-moving ship - a flock of seagulls keeps pace with the vessel. A panorama inside the crowded harbour at Gibraltar from the bridge of the battle cruiser HMS Hood during the March 1938 Combined Fleet exercises; nearest to Hood is a G Class destroyer HMS Gallant (pennant number H59) moored alongside a County Class cruiser, probably HMS Sussex, and, close by, another Country Class cruiser, probably HMS London; both cruisers are in Mediterranean Fleet light grey. Also visible are three new Southampton Class cruisers, HMS Newcastle (with her stern to the camera), HMS Sheffield and HMS Southampton (all three light cruisers are in Home Fleet dark grey), the hospital ship HMHT Maine (painted overall in white) and, moored along the south mole, four battleships - HMS Nelson, HMS Warspite, HMS Malaya and HMS Royal Oak (the last two warships with a pair of fleet destroyers moored alongside). A view from the boat deck of HMS Hood near the single port side 4-inch anti-aircraft gun looking aft towards the battleship HMS Rodney. Another view of HMS Newcastle (?) beyond an H or I Class destroyer in the foreground.

[Flyby PC 23]

Yes, that's my same source Lima33, or one of them, I've written to the IWM to see how I go about seeing it.

 

I have two other helpful pics, but no authority to copy them so I can only give you the links.

 

- This is Destroyer H59 HMS Gallant and County Class Cruiser Sussex, 'there' somewhere, but its tricky to fix exactly in the picture for a formal ID - Going by the angle of her funnels, Sussex is I THINK Bullethead's 'County C' but before Gallant arrives alongside, but, Sussex could equally be the County D behind, with Gallant unseen on the far side. I can't tell from the picture below whether that's the tail end of Royal Oak in the picture, but I think it is. So if Sussex is County C, even if Gallant arrived alongside later on, it contradicts with the Synopsis description of Gallant being nearest Hood. It's one of the two but you just can't call it.

 

http://www.rafmuseum...nt/1762317.html

 

 

And here is a cracker, fourth picture from the bottom, - Nelson, Warspite, Malaya and Royal Oak pictured from Hood. - I checked profiles and that's 5 confirms in my book, (the fifth being Hood herself). This was pictured by Jim Higginson, a veteran from Hood.

 

http://www.hmshood.c.../higginson6.htm

 

 

And as for Arethusa and Galatea my dad flew over both at some stage - there must be cine film of Galatea somewhere...

Edited October 25, 2011 by Flyby PC

[33LIMA 972]

Nice pics! I used to love building the Airfix 1/600 warships, crude models tho they may be by current standards, but the original instructions told you what each part was, so you got to learn your high-angle directors from your director control towers. Glad to see many are still available. Also built the Eaglewall 1/2000 ship kits, they were 'themed' around battles like Narvik and came with maps of the battle, the models were tiny but where else could you get a model of a Dieter von Roeder or H Class class destroyers, the Altmark, or a KGV, back then.

[Flyby PC 23]

I'm very impressed with the knowledge gents, and you'll never know how grateful.

 

I've got another one to ask. Anybody know what this reference in the logbook would be about? Does it means dropping flares or some kind of illuninated ordinance perhaps, for some special photoshoot or something? Any ideas?

Edited October 25, 2011 by Flyby PC

[33LIMA 972]

You've got me there; the Fleet Air Arm museum could help. I'd hazzard a gues that these are references to practice missions for night-bombing techniques, as put into practice by Swordfish in the attack on Taranto. Maybe 'sashlight' was the term used to denote the dropping of flares to illuminate targets, which was done during that mission. These techniques would have been rehearsed pre-war, I imagine.

[Flyby PC 23]

It's got me too. Sounds like a flare type mission but it was 1045 in the morning. + 6000ft.

[33LIMA 972]

Funny that. I was thinking maybe the camera obscura was some kind of hood or something they used to do blind- or night-flying training in daylight, but that really is a wild guess. It does ring a bell tho and thinking about some sort of light projection system and blind flying, had me looking up the Link Trainer. A total dead end but I'm wondering if I could knock one up in the garage to enhance my flight simming;

 

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Link_Trainer

 

Put a detachable wing on top and it could double for WW1 and WW2

 

Anyway, back OT, I wonder what WS&D means?

Edited October 25, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Flyby PC 23]

'Something' Search and Destroy. Warship perhaps?