SF2 Realism Mod

[+malibu43 142]

Below is a zip file that has the "master" RWR.lst based off of dtmdragon's with all the neccessary entries for eburger's AAA and SAM's pack. It also has avionics files for all the stock TEWS aircraft updated to use the new master RWR.lst. These folders could be just dropped into the aircraft folder and you'd be ready to go.

 

RWR Lists.rar

 

If we want to use eburger's new AAA and SAM pack for this mod (which I think we do), I can replace my "Common BaseMod Folder" from the beginning of this thread at some point with eburger's new stuff dropped in instead of my old AAA pack.

 

Speaking of "what we want to do", Dave was the ring-leader for this project, but it looks like he's taking a break from modding for a while (or for ever). Other than my initial uploads and the squadronlist.ini work that's gone on, we don't really have anything else done yet. What else do we want to include?

 

- updated avionics? - Crusader, Dave threw your name out for this one. Do you have anything in the works for this? Or is it just grabbing all of your individual mods out of the downloads section?

- Terrains - I can add the latest and greatest terrains mods from Stary from the downloads section.

- Sky - I can add the latest and greatest sky mod from Stary from the downloads section.

 

Is there anything else we want to add here? I know Dave had mentioned a weapons pack, but I don't know of one readily available that's up-to-date, and I don't know of anyone working on one. My time is limited, so I may be able to compile the stuff listed above, but I don't have bandwidth to tackle a weapons pack. Do we really need a weapons pack? I can't think of weapons that I really wish I had during typical gameplay.

[+HomeFries 29]

I like what you've done with the RWR, malibu. I was planning on doing something similar for the next A-6 version, but you beat me to it! I have already updated my default soundlist.ini for the superpack to take advantage of the AAA/SAM packs (because who wants to fly the A-6 at low level without those? ), though not having the mods installed won't hurt anything.

 

Otherwise, I'm up to my eyeballs with the next version of the superpack, as well as making decals for the squadronlist.ini. What we really need is an integrator for the components of the realism pack.

 

I also think that there should be two goals for a community pack (going beyond just the realism pack). First is the goal of the realism pack, which is to have a single download of maximum stability (i.e. unlikely to be tweaked by patches or other mods) that can be installed by users to enhance the basic SF2 experience. The second is to establish a baseline for the modding community so that we don't have to keep making tweaks to the same INI files, or worry about overwriting weapons/guns/effects, et al everytime we install a new mod. The more dynamic nature of the second goal means that we should have a different download or set of downloads from the actual Realism Pack.

 

Malibu, in terms of needing a weapons pack, I think it's a good idea based on my second goal above. I'm not sure we need to create something from scratch,but rather if we determine the best community weapons and put them all together, I think that's a great idea.

 

One more idea: I experimented with making the USN NationName a level 1 decal as opposed to level 0. This allows you to make different "NAVY" monikers for each squadron, which allow you to add the name of the carrier to which the squadron is attached. Since I'm doing this for the A-6, I've only done decals for the heavy carriers (i.e. no Oriskany), but this could be easily baselined for future modding efforts. I definitely have some ideas on how to community baseline decals by timeframe (e.g. 1965, 1971, 1976, 1981, 1983) if people are interested. This way someone could create decals for a 1972 F-4 squadron (along with the assigned ship) and anybody who created F-4 skins could use those decals.

Edited August 21, 2012 by HomeFries

[+malibu43 142]

I can be the integrator. I already have most of the work done (I've already integrated eburger's new stuff). So as more folks have things to add, I can compile them. I'll take care of adding all of Stary's stuff (terrains, sky, effects).

 

Lets see what we have when we're all said and done and see if/how it makes sense to break things up into two packs. Maybe we could do a "Level 1" with terrains, clouds, and effects, and then a "Level 2" with things like loadouts, avionics, SAMs and AAA, etc... But again, we should look at it when we're all done. We're already at 6 different folders to install with just one realism pack. I don't want to make things overwhelming with 12 different folders to look at.

 

Adding in a weapons pack is fine, as long as:

1. There's a reason for it. I don't want to create and entire weapons pack just because. I think the stock weapons cover the time frame very well, work well, and are balanced. I think we should limit the weapons pack to key weapons that are missing or fixes for stock weapons (like the adjustments for base qty for the MK82SE and Rockeye that I've included).

2. Someone wants to do it and does it right. I don't have time right now. And, I think most of the weapons packs that are already out there are pretty old at this point. So pulling weapons from those will require a lot of testing, updating, and checking for gameplay balance.

[+HomeFries 29]

One more thing for the weapons pack (though this should apply to anything community based):

 

If it's of sufficient quality to be universally accepted/utilized in a number of mods, it should be included. For example, I'm thinking of the sounds from the F-14 Superpack that are also used in the Hornet and my A-6, along with the different variants of the AIM-54 that are improvements on the stock weapons.

Edited August 21, 2012 by HomeFries

[+SupGen 79]

If I can stick my two cents in: Maybe the "weapons pack" could be limited to (strong) suggestions (with the download links included)? Personally, I think McGunny's Ordnance Pack2, although dated, if updated properly is a must. With these: lindr2's Soviet Bombs Pack, Silverbolt's Hi-Def Russian AAMs Pack, dtmdragon's Modern RAF Smart Bombs Pack, Dave and GrinchWSLG's Hi-Res Modern US CBU Pack, White Boy Samurai's Cruise Missle Update Pack, and (I saved the best for last, Ravenclaw's AGM-65 Pack and Weapons Pack 1 and when it comes out, Weapons Pack 2. The Phoenixes from the latest Tomcat Superpack, as Homefries said, are improvements on the stock ones (TW's AIM-54A falls about in the middle of the Pack's AIM-54A, AIM-54C, and AIM-54CE and is a bit of a "magic bullet" for 1979). The SSC's were adjusted to work with the stock F-14's and Spectre8750 updated the skins so if you like your Phoenixes Big, Bad, AND Beautiful (and I do), they're the only way to go. The biggest problem with weapons in general is when you d'load an aircraft and unthinkingly click the Objects folder and end up overwriting your Hi-Def latest and greatest with stuff from two years ago (not that I've ever done that, of course), so maybe a word to the unwise on that, too. Alright, twenty five cents.

[+HomeFries 29]

I have no problem going with suggestions/links, but the premise of a community pack is for a mod baseline to avoid the overwrites that have never happened to SupGen . The idea is for future mods to say "this plane requires the CA Community Weapons Pack", or something along those lines so that you install it and then can install any other mod over the top without concerns about overwriting. Then, when the community mod is updated, ideally people can install it directly over the top of the existing community mod without having to worry about version control issues.

 

The other idea being that with a community baseline, the sum can be greater than its parts. For example, if we already have different number decals available in different colors, people can use what already exists without having to create it themselves, and it shouldn't have problems integrating with other mods that use the same files.

[+malibu43 142]

Well, to your point earlier HF, it seems like we seeing two different purposes for the realism mod develop. The first (and original) intent of the realism mod was to fill in "gaps" left by the stock game. My understanding was that this would first and foremost be things like terrains, effects, and clouds (things that look 15 years old in the stock game). And then we expanded that to some other things like loadout or avionics corrections, and expansion of some of the stock campaigns. In my mind, the AAA and SAM mods still fit within the original scope, since the stock AAA and SAMs are pretty limited and not very threatening. The AAA and SAM pack help to make it feel like WW3. Again, all things that the stock game "should" have.

 

And now it seems another purpose is being proposed, where this mod becomes a base pack for all other mods to be built on top of and includes things that really may not be noticed by most users unless they add something else later on. For example, adding in lots of decals doesn't do anything to enhance the stock game unless you add other mods that utilize them. A Soviet bombs pack will be totally invisible to someone unless they add flyable red aircraft that make use of those weapons. Gunny's weapons pack is great, and contains a lot of stuff that is neat to see in the loadout menu, but serves no purpose in the stock conflicts (different types of napalm and incendiary weapons, smoke marking rockets, bombs with fuse-extenders, etc...). Also, I don't know if it makes sense to include hi-res skins of weapons when we aren't even including aircraft skins. (the exception to everything in this paragraph would be stock weapons that need to be fixed or new weapons that fill obvious gaps)

 

Not only does adding all the secondary stuff mean extra time to test and compile it (as well as bumps up the size of the download), it also works off of the assumption that folks will actually use the "modding base" that we're building. If someone builds a new aircraft 6 months from now, will they use our decals and weapons, or just customize and create the few things that they need? There have been several weapons packs over the years. Each one was going to be the new standard, until something came along 6 months later that replaced it. In fact the community seemed to move away from weapons pack toward individual aircraft comeing with the specific weapons that they needed. I'd just hate to see us put a lot of extra work into something that is ignored or superceded a few months down the road.

 

So, I agree with what we talked about earlier - the "realism mod" that is just an enhancement of the stock game, and then a community weapons/skins/decals pack that can go on top of the realism mod and serve as a base for futre mods. I'm going to focus mostly on the realism mod (since that's really what I'm interested in) and leave the community mod base up to you guys (if that's OK).

 

*edit - Of course, I ain't the boss. If folks feel that adding lots of weapons is the way to go, then we can always do that. It's just a game, afterall...

Edited August 22, 2012 by malibu43

[+HomeFries 29]

Sounds like a plan to me. The community mod will have to evolve on its own, or someone with a fairly universally recognized mod will have to get onboard. Like you said, people need to embrace it for it to be relevant. It will also require more updates due to its very nature, so it should be a separate download or series of downloads.

 

That said, since you are a weapons guy I would appreciate any contributions on that side of things.

[+daddyairplanes 10,135]

my two cents on the weapon matter is that much should be added but maybe not everything possible out there. i had to massively trim doen Gunnys pack when i had my old Compaq laptop due to there just being soooo much stuff that i wasn't gonna use. on the other hand without ini edits on some weps you have things like the abilty to carry Mk 82's on a Mustang in 1950! i would vote for making the stock weps more accurate and adding some of the useful stuff but maybe not every single variant of 2.75 FFAR or Iranian homemade missle. leave those in the specific mods (FAC, Helo or Op Darius) for which they are more useful.

my understanding was that this was primarily for stock game improvement, but i also agree with HR that many elements (squadronlist, RWR library) could be useful in any future mods to save time and lessen patching impact. not to say patches won't bork the mod, just lessen the borking to where updating is a few hour or maybe day affair for all concerned

[+HomeFries 29]

Concur 100% with DA.

 

We can always start with weapons and other files that are known to be widely used, and expand (or contract) iteratively. If someone wants a weapon or series of files added to the community mod, they can always request it and we can always add it.

 

I think of the story of the engineer who wanted to know the most efficient routes to different locations, so he had nothing but an open field between buildings. After a while, the traffic killed the grass and displayed the best paths both in routes taken and traffic along the routes. This is the approach I'm taking with the community mod. Lets deliver a field and see where it goes from there.

 

EDIT: Even though this is iterative, there will need to be some standards that allow for a baseline for other users and modders. I propose nailing that down before release so as to prevent mod obsolescence/bugs between versions. Stuff like naming conventions need to be nailed down, because once we put something out we can't change the name; we can only add to the naming tree.

Edited August 22, 2012 by HomeFries

[+malibu43 142]

Cool. Sounds like we are all in agreement.

 

I am starting to compile Stary's stuff and the AAA/SAM pack into the folders. Then once I'm done with that, we can look into weapons.

 

My GermanyCE folder with Stary's Baltic tiles is 470MB zipped up, so we may be looking at multiple files to download (which I didn't want to do). We could do separate downloads for the terrains, but then if we aren't adding anything other than Stary's tilesets, we may as well just point users to the existing downloads. Hmmmm... will have to think about that. Or maybe we'll add more stuff than just what Stary has...

[+daddyairplanes 10,135]

if multiple folders why not break down into 1. terrians 2. ini edits 3. flight, effects and other minor but not strictly ini related mods 4. weps. just as an idea i dont think we are talking major aircraft mods right now.

 

and because R/L is still kickin my butt right now i'm gonna wrapup the squadronlist by adding the major shooter squadrons from NF4 and Vieatnam Air and Ground. still little leary of red air add ins cause then your talking cockpits and could make a squadronlist as big as the stock one. but there should be plenty of room at the end to add in. my main focus with that has been 1 units flying stock aircraft sometim in history and 2 era from 1948-1991. yea theres examples like the 100th FS wich replaced Alabama ANG's 160th FS in '07 but i don't wanna go that crazy.....

Edited August 22, 2012 by daddyairplanes

[+malibu43 142]

if multiple folders why not break down into 1. terrians 2. ini edits 3. flight, effects and other minor but not strictly ini related mods 4. weps. just as an idea i dont think we are talking major aircraft mods right now.

...

 

Well, we already have it broken down into common files, title specific files, and files for a full merged install. That's 6 folders already. I'd like to not have to replicate that same structure through multiple .zip files if possible.

 

I think we should be able to fit everything but terrains into one file easily. And then I guess we'll just have to have a couple more .zips to cover all the terrains. I'd like to add some other stuff to the terrains like waternormal.bmp and maybe JSF Aggie's hi-res runway and taxiways (if someone can help me figure out why some airbases still have some stock textures showing in spots).

[+HomeFries 29]

One thought on the SAM/AAA integration:

 

While I was doing my own integration the other day, I noticed that a number of the objects were replicated by the Black Sea 2.0 theater, with the primary mod being that Ukraine was added to the userlist.ini. I'll be happy to upload my updated userlists for you to integrate if you like (and I also had to add the userlist.ini entry to the GroundObject.ini in a number of cases as well).

 

EDIT: if you don't want to add Ukraine to the userlist, then you could always bundle it with a userlist.ini entry in GroundObject.ini so that People using the Black Sea theater only have to replace one file as opposed to adding a line to the INI as well.

Edited August 22, 2012 by HomeFries

[+malibu43 142]

One thought on the SAM/AAA integration:

 

While I was doing my own integration the other day, I noticed that a number of the objects were replicated by the Black Sea 2.0 theater, with the primary mod being that Ukraine was added to the userlist.ini. I'll be happy to upload my updated userlists for you to integrate if you like (and I also had to add the userlist.ini entry to the GroundObject.ini in a number of cases as well).

 

EDIT: if you don't want to add Ukraine to the userlist, then you could always bundle it with a userlist.ini entry in GroundObject.ini so that People using the Black Sea theater only have to replace one file as opposed to adding a line to the INI as well.

 

Go ahead and send me your updated userlists and .ini files. I'll take a look at adding them.

[+HomeFries 29]

Sorry it took so long, but here you go:

SAM Changes.7z

AAA Changes.7z

[+HomeFries 29]

Malibu,

 

I have some requests for inclusion with the baseline RP:

• FastCargo's Pave Knife (both USN/USAF versions can be pulled from your AGXP), including the AVQ10_Track.tga and AVQ10_Lock.tga files . I have added some weathering to the USN texture (enclosed).
  
• The looped sounds from the TMF F-14 Superpack (USN2, USNFLAPS, USNOVSP, USNSTALL, USNWIND, XLE2
  
• The latest Seat_F-14 from the TMF F-14 Superpack (we can add this to the 3W F-14 and the A-6E/EA-6B)
  

Just a few off the top of my head. I'm sure I'll think of more.

PaveKnifeN.7z

[+malibu43 142]

Sorry it took so long, but here you go:

 

So, it looks like those are all objects that don't currently have a userlist. Is that correct? If that is the case, I don't think there is any advantage of adding one. Without a userlist.ini, they will still show up on the Black Sea terrain. The only time it's an issue is if an object does have a userlist and a terrain that should use the object isn't on there.

 

I'd rather not mess with eburger's files if we don't have to. That way if he updates his pack, we can just drag and drop into our mod.

 

I can add that other stuff as well. I'm busy for a while, so I can't say it will be anytime soon. To be honest, things like ejection seats seem like something that might be overkill and crossing from the "basic must-have enhancements to the stock game" to "rivet counting". Maybe that's just me though...

[+HomeFries 29]

Some of them do have userlists, and some of them don't. In my readmes, I annotated which ones also required another entry in the object.INI file; if what you say is true, then those can be discarded. The folders that only have a userlist.ini already have an existing userlist (in the object.ini), in which case adding Ukraine is a good call.

 

Things like sounds and ejection seats/fakepilot mods are good for the RP because they are stable and do enhance the experience. I consider it more aesthetics than rivet counting. They're also small files, so they won't seriously affect the download size, but they do add some flavor without crossing into rivet counting. IIRC the original idea was also to apply stable enhancements (i.e. not skins or files likely to be subject to patching), and Dave said "bring it on" when I previously addressed seats and fakepilot objects.

[+HomeFries 29]

This got me thinking: we should establish more specific guidelines for the RP. Anything good that doesn't fall into the guidelines can go into the Community pack.

 

My proposed guidelines:

• Stable I - hasn't been adjusted in a while and/or needs few adjustments over time)
  
• Stable II - doesn't modify something likely to be patched
  
• Enhances gameplay
  
• Adds to realism (gameplay or graphics/rivet counting)
  
• Applies to stock objects, or mod that utilizes a stock LOD and meets Stable I/II criteria (e.g. an established F-4 variant like the F-4S). Skins should be copies of default in this case.
  
• Files commonly used by community that meet Stable I/II criteria (e.g. TMF F-14 sounds)
  
• Covers default period (1950s-1980)
  

 

There is still a lot of room for interpretation here, as we could still add a ton of pilots/seats and apply them to stock aircraft (e.g. Mk7 to the F-104, F-14 to Tomcat/A-6E/EA-6B, K-36 to Red aircraft, etc.). We could also take some of the avionics tweaks to stock aircraft (e.g. Crusader's F-15A Avionics Enhancement v1c), and we could also insert more realistic/more valuable reticle depression data into the 1960s aircraft. Stock Data.ini and Cockpit.ini files are fair game, though assigning cockpits to things like red aircraft should still fall into the Community Pack domain.

 

The other consideration: even if the Community pack is to be a mod baseline, there's nothing that says we can't include baseline CP items into the RP if they meet the criteria (esp. Stability I/II). We're still talking about a wholesale enhancement without having to maintain version control on a lot of files. Squadronlist.ini and the decals are still CP territory; that's a much more dynamic set of files (with decals often getting periodic improvement) and greater efforts at version control are to be expected.

[+malibu43 142]

This got me thinking: we should establish more specific guidelines for the RP. Anything good that doesn't fall into the guidelines can go into the Community pack.

 

My proposed guidelines:

• Stable I - hasn't been adjusted in a while and/or needs few adjustments over time)
  
• Stable II - doesn't modify something likely to be patched
  
• Enhances gameplay
  
• Adds to realism (gameplay or graphics/rivet counting)
  
• Applies to stock objects, or mod that utilizes a stock LOD and meets Stable I/II criteria (e.g. an established F-4 variant like the F-4S). Skins should be copies of default in this case.
  
• Files commonly used by community that meet Stable I/II criteria (e.g. TMF F-14 sounds)
  
• Covers default period (1950s-1980)
  

There is still a lot of room for interpretation here, as we could still add a ton of pilots/seats and apply them to stock aircraft (e.g. Mk7 to the F-104, F-14 to Tomcat/A-6E/EA-6B, K-36 to Red aircraft, etc.). We could also take some of the avionics tweaks to stock aircraft (e.g. Crusader's F-15A Avionics Enhancement v1c), and we could also insert more realistic/more valuable reticle depression data into the 1960s aircraft. Stock Data.ini and Cockpit.ini files are fair game, though assigning cockpits to things like red aircraft should still fall into the Community Pack domain.

 

The other consideration: even if the Community pack is to be a mod baseline, there's nothing that says we can't include baseline CP items into the RP if they meet the criteria (esp. Stability I/II). We're still talking about a wholesale enhancement without having to maintain version control on a lot of files. Squadronlist.ini and the decals are still CP territory; that's a much more dynamic set of files (with decals often getting periodic improvement) and greater efforts at version control are to be expected.

 

That sounds fine then. I'll try and help out with integrating as much as I can, but like I said, I'm pretty limited on time right now. If someone feels like picking it up at some point, feel free.

 

As much as I hate to say it, I'm totally burnt out on SF2 right now. So I'm going to be poking along pretty slowly on things.

[+HomeFries 29]

No problem, Malibu. I'll take it. Please upload everything you've integrated thus far. I'd like to get the RP out before A-6 Superpack 2.0, so that will be motivation to keep me on schedule.

 

That said, I would prefer to limit my role to be an integrator and tester; the more stuff I start to tweak, the more I need to test my own stuff, and the more likelihood I introduce bugs I don't catch. As long as I am doing straight-up integration, I can test without preconceptions. Likewise, I can upload beta builds to this thread for others to test as well, but we can cross that bridge when we get to it.

 

I would really like your help with realistic weapon loadouts for other aircraft; you did such a great job helping me with the A-6 that I appreciate your tome of knowledge. I can do the changes if you provide the sources. The other thing I previously alluded to is modifying the bomb depression reticle to something more useful than a 50 mil drop. If you know the standard altitude/airspeed/dive angle for major variants (A-4, F-4, et. al.) I can figure out the depression value and plug that into the INI files. In the absence of knowing the dive angle we can use 30 degrees as an entering argument.

[+malibu43 142]

No problem, Malibu. I'll take it. Please upload everything you've integrated thus far. I'd like to get the RP out before A-6 Superpack 2.0, so that will be motivation to keep me on schedule.

 

That said, I would prefer to limit my role to be an integrator and tester; the more stuff I start to tweak, the more I need to test my own stuff, and the more likelihood I introduce bugs I don't catch. As long as I am doing straight-up integration, I can test without preconceptions. Likewise, I can upload beta builds to this thread for others to test as well, but we can cross that bridge when we get to it.

 

I would really like your help with realistic weapon loadouts for other aircraft; you did such a great job helping me with the A-6 that I appreciate your tome of knowledge. I can do the changes if you provide the sources. The other thing I previously alluded to is modifying the bomb depression reticle to something more useful than a 50 mil drop. If you know the standard altitude/airspeed/dive angle for major variants (A-4, F-4, et. al.) I can figure out the depression value and plug that into the INI files. In the absence of knowing the dive angle we can use 30 degrees as an entering argument.

 

I'll try to get something uploaded today.

 

With regards to the depression angle - If I remember correctly anything that resembles a useful depression angle results in the gunsight not being on the reflector glass and down in the cockpit somewhere instead. If you download Bunyaps Weapons pack (I think it's from 2006), it had a great pdf with all sorts of charts, airspeeds, altitudes, angles, etc...

[+HomeFries 29]

I do have the weapons pack; it's actually those tables I was planning to use to get the depression value. The big thing is the entering arguments, which will be based on procedures and guidance at the time. I imagine that the A-4 normally had a different dive speed than the F-4 given the same dive angle, and the release altitude (while based on the tactical situation) would be standardized as well. I figure set the reticle up for Mk82 LDGP bombs to cover the most likely scenario (cluster munitions will likely be a lower altitude drop, but having a reticle for LDGP is still better than a 50 mil depression).

[+malibu43 142]

OK.

 

Here this is basically what I posted on the first page + the SAM/AAA packs, SARCASM, and Unified Effects Pack. All integrated happily. This doesn't include the paveknife and AAA/SAM changes you posted above. This also doesn't include the terrains. I have them zipped up and ready to go, but they're huge. I'll just hold onto them unless someone specifically wants to work on something. Then we'll eventually have to figure out how to split them up and upload them (or just give links to the originals...).

 

Common BaseMod Folder.rar

 

Full Merged BaseMod Folder.rar

 

SF2 BaseMod Folder.rar

 

SF2E BaseMod Folder.rar

 

SF2I BaseMod Folder.rar

 

SF2NA BaseMod Folder.rar

 

SF2V BaseMod Folder.rar

 

What's left at this point? Off the top of my head:

 

- squadronlist.ini

- avionics from Crusader

- weapons

- any loadout adjustments other than A-10's and F-4's.

 

I didn't include Gerwin's NA tiles at this point in my terrains. I know they're necessary for a lot of people to get acceptable frames, but they also really downgrade the appearance of the water. Do you guys think they're a "must-have"?