Audio from Argentine pilots during mission in 1982

[Mothman]

Download link <-- This file was posted at the ECV56 Condor forum.

 

Maybe it could help in the development of the audio files for the sim (???)

 

Anyway it's interesting material, if you understand spanish. For those who don't, I am affraid there is no transcription that I know of (learn spanish, you limeys!).

 

It starts with a pilot excited about seing other aircraft impacting its bombs on a british ship, then pilots exchanging damage reports (one is leaking fuel and he's assesing if he can make it back to base), then the Malvinas radar reporting 2 CAPs over the area where the attack was made plus another one farther north and a fourth CAP incoming from the carrier's location area. This is what I could understand so far, as I only listened to it once.

 

I thought it would be interesting for some history buffs among us. It's a good testimonial, I guess, that depicts the intensity of air operations during 1982, i this case from the argentinian side.

 

Regards.

Edited October 8, 2005 by Mothman

[Mothman]

Ok. On my second run I got that the pilot describes impacts and explosions on a CL-42 by one of his mates. He also says he felt several impacts on his own aircraft. While egressing, his mates check for leaks and find a small one. The pilot then says he's going to go high to save fuel in order to reach the tanker, and that if "they" (the CAPs) get him then so be it (the Malvinas radar was reporting that 1 CAP was homming on them).

 

Then all the pilots refer to which ship they aimed their bombs (the one on the right or on the left?) and all report they aimed at the same one. The pilot who's plane is damaged says he almost crashed against the ship's radar dome.

 

Scary times.

Edited October 8, 2005 by Mothman

[Mothman]

After some research, I realized that this audio file has been around for a while and that maybe some of you already knew about it.

 

Anyway, apparently (I'm not sure) it was the A-4B mission (code name "Vulcano" and "Zeus") who sank the HMS Coventry on May 25th in open waters north of the islands and damaged the HMS Broadsword with a bomb that did not explode and went al the way through the hull.

 

The "Vulcano" flight was formed by Cap. Carballo, Lt. Rinke, and WO. Carmona (who had to abort due to mechanical problems). The "Zeus" flight was formed by 1Lt Velazquez, Lt Osses, and WO. Barrionuevo (who had to abort after failing during the refueling ops). "Ranquel" was the KC-130 flight, afaik. "Rayo" was the support flight (a Learjet, I guess).

 

More info on the mission here.

 

I would really like to know if this audio is from that mission.

Edited October 8, 2005 by Mothman

[+Dante-JT]

Yes, probably it was from the famous Volcano and Zeus flights at May 25th 1982. Speaking about this mission, Monday here in Brazil will be airing, at the National Geographic Channel, 20:00hrs, a documentary about the sinking of the HMS Coventry - it's been aired several times but I always fail to catch it :) Maybe this time I will try to come home earlier.

[Mothman]

A documentary about a single mission? Wow. I need to see that one. Maybe the National Geographic sells the DVD. I'll look for it around the web.

[+Dante-JT]

This is the info about this documentary:

http://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/front...+6%3A00%3A00+PM

Seismic Seconds: The Sinking Of HMS Coventry

May 25 1982, Argentina's National Day and the height of the Falklands War. Shortly before 2pm, the Argentine airforce ordered four Skyhawk fighter planes to attack two British warships off the coast of the Falkland Islands, the state-of-the-art destroyer HMS Coventry and the frigate HMS Broadsword. What happened next stunned Britain's naval chiefs. One of the world's most modern fighting vessels was dispatched to the bottom of the South Atlantic Ocean by an ageing aircraft. Nineteen sailors died. During the key seconds of the Argentine attack the British ships found they were unable to defend themselves when their state of the art missile systems became confused.

[AWL_Spinner]

Sounds like an interesting documentary!

 

From what I recall from Sandy Woodward's book, Broadsword had a good Seawolf (which proved the most effective of the close-in weapons systems and claimed several A4s) lock on two incoming Skyhawks which hit Coventry, but was unable to fire because in all the defensive manoeuvring, Coventry had moved directly between Broadsword and the A4s.

 

By contrast Coventry's Seadart was unable to get a lock, and she was unable to defend herself in this instance. Seadart was also less effective as a close-in weapon, and it's radar - designed for the open sea - had issues with ground return (for instance if an attack came from landward rather than open sea, which, in this case - it did, over Pebble Island).

 

Lucky for the pilots and unlucky for Coventry.

 

There was also some contention that the British press had a hand in the sinking of Coventry! Prior to that attack much of the Argentine ordinance had been incorrectly fused for low level attack (resulting in direct hits that had failed to detonate). This had (amazingly) been widely reported in the papers, and presumably acted upon by the Argentine air-force - the bombs that hit the destroyer detonated with devastating effect.

 

With regards to this simulator and it's recreation of such missions I think there are unique challenges to this conflict with regards to battlefield simulation. The Argentine attack was succesful (amongst other reasons) because the attack profile (a feint and then low level run-in using terrain to mask their approach) was designed to counter the 909 radar which had been so successful in earlier engagements.

 

Accurate ship-bourne anti-aircraft radar and defence systems are probably equal number one in importance with the Argentine standoff weapon and radar, Exocet, as besides the Sea Harrier most confrontations were between aircraft and ships.

 

I don't think anyone's produced a simulator before that's so reliant on the curvature of the earth, ground clutter and atmospherics!

 

Regards, Spinner

Edited November 1, 2005 by AWL_Spinner

[+Crusader]

.

 

There was also some contention that the British press had a hand in the sinking of Coventry! Prior to that attack much of the Argentine ordinance had been incorrectly fused for low level attack (resulting in direct hits that had failed to detonate). This had (amazingly) been widely reported in the papers, and presumably acted upon by the Argentine air-force - the bombs that hit the destroyer detonated with devastating effect.

 

.

 

naa.....the British sailors put up a really hot small arms fire , the Argentine pilots were forced to fly very low due to this and most bombs simply didnt have enough time after release to arm properly. Also there was a lack of retarded bombs, apparently the Argentines used a parachute retarded bomb later in the conflict , manufacturers of that bomb is unknown to me.

[Mothman]

naa.....the British sailors put up a really hot small arms fire , the Argentine pilots were forced to fly very low due to this and most bombs simply didnt have enough time after release to arm properly. Also there was a lack of retarded bombs, apparently the Argentines used a parachute retarded bomb later in the conflict , manufacturers of that bomb is unknown to me.

 

The FAA was not prepared for naval warfare and this is best seen when comparing the equipment and loadout of the A-4P (upgraded A-4B and A-C) of the argentine air force with those of the A-4Q of the argentine navy:

 

During the anti-ship missions the A-4P used to carry 500kg iron bombs (Mk 82s?) while the A-4Q carried 250kg "Snakeyes" with retardants. Later in the conflict the air force updated their tactics and loadouts, although it was a little too late (the british had already landed). The HMS Sir Galahad and HMS Sir Tristan were the victims of that update, I think.

 

Also the A-4Q had an Intertial Navigational system (Ferranti ISIS?) and the A-4P did not. Many A-4P sorties failed to locate the enemy due to weather conditions over the islands which prevented proper visual navigation after reaching the IP. This is what I remember from some book I read long time ago about the conflict.

 

The argentine pilots were forced to fly low to prevent early detection and subsequent Sea Dart fire, not because of the small arms fire. Although I must say that I admire not only the argentine pilot's courage but also the british sailor who faced them with their mounted machineguns and other small arms. I wonder how this sim could simulate that small arms fire. It would lower the FPS somewhat, right?

[Mothman]

Look at these.

[+Crusader]

Yup, I know about the different loadouts etc. I have read several books about this conflict and some websites too (some of them in spanish).

It's correct that the Argentine AF wasn't prepared for Anti-Ship missions. The Sea Dart/Sea Wolf systems forced them to ingress low and the small arms fire/SeaWolf partially prevented them to make the pull-up to the correct release height for the bombs. And they did use parachute-retarded bombs later in the conflict, accordingly to the AAF website. Of the A-4Q's only 3 were equipped with the OMEGA navigation system, that means 3 off all existing A-4Q and not of the 8 (+2-3 i think)which were actually used. Some of the A-4P's did have the same OMEGA system, but numbers elude me right now...I remember reading a number of 5... not sure.

 

 

From the FAA website :

 

one of the missions on 1st May

 

Cuatro A-4B Skyhawk, indicativo "Trueno". Misión: ataque a objetivo naval. Tripulación: Capitán Pablo Carballo (C-215), Teniente Carlos Rinke (C-212), 1er Teniente Carlos Cachón (C-225) y Alférez Leonardo Carmona (C-240). Armamento: tres bombas retardadas por paracaídas. Despegaron de Río Gallegos a las 16:00 hs.

 

paracaídas= parachute

 

Another bomb often mentioned as loadout for Dagger, A-4P and Canberra is the MK-17. I don't know anything more about it. Probably 500 lb/250 kg class.

 

Another interesting loadout from the same day :

 

Dos A-4C Skyhawk, indicativo "Pampa". Misión: reconocimiento ofensivo y sombrilla aérea. Tripulación: Capitán Eduardo Almoño (C-322) y Alférez Carlos Codrington (C-325). Armamento: misiles Shaffrir. Despegaron de San Julián a las 15:20 hs. El avión guía, informado de la presencia de PAC y con fallas del VHF y trasvase del tanque izquierdo, regresó. Arribaron a las 17:20 hs.

Edited November 5, 2005 by Crusader

[Mothman]

I think the Mk17 is a 1,000 kg bomb (or 1,000 pounder?).

 

A flyable Canberra would be nice for this sim. :)

[scary_pigeon]

The argentine pilots were forced to fly low to prevent early detection and subsequent Sea Dart fire, not because of the small arms fire. Although I must say that I admire not only the argentine pilot's courage but also the british sailor who faced them with their mounted machineguns and other small arms. I wonder how this sim could simulate that small arms fire. It would lower the FPS somewhat, right?

 

perhaps a statistical model to model that dependent on speed and apparant motion from the view of the target.

[+Crusader]

I think the Mk17 is a 1,000 kg bomb (or 1,000 pounder?).

 

A flyable Canberra would be nice for this sim. :)

 

 

Yup, that could be right. 1000 lb (454 kg)

[DamienB]

I have some interest in this particular mission, seeing as my father was on HMS Coventry, and I run the HMS Coventry website.

 

I have no doubt whatsoever the audio file is a poorly done fake.

 

From accounts I have read from the pilots involved, strict radio silence was the order of the day and this was only broken when their targets were sighted, with a short amount of on-air jubilation that was cut short by one of them reminding the others about radio silence. There certainly wasn't 15 minutes of jabbering, which would have been suicide for all involved!

 

Furthermore, during the recording you often hear more than one voice talking at once - radio simply doesn't work that way, it's one at a time. Additionally VHF is line of sight, and as they were at wavetop height with no friendly units nearby and no AWACS, who on Earth would have been managing to both pick up all this audio and record it?

[ECV56_PaulTen]

I have no doubt whatsoever the audio file is a poorly done fake.

It is no fake, two weeks ago I was in a conference given by Pablo Marcos Carballo, one of the pilots that was on that mission and told us that the recording is real.

[ECV56_PaulTen]

I forgot to mention that I don't think that the audio file belongs to only one mission; I'm not sure, but maybe it is a set of different mission recordings joined in a big file; beside that, the part that clearly identifies the Coventry mission is real, as Carballo said during the conference.

[DamienB]

I forgot to mention that I don't think that the audio file belongs to only one mission; I'm not sure, but maybe it is a set of different mission recordings joined in a big file; beside that, the part that clearly identifies the Coventry mission is real, as Carballo said during the conference.

 

I can only suggest you or he are mistaken - radio simply doesn't sound like that. The best it could possibly be would be a recreation of the real thing, but even that doesn't appear likely given what the pilots have put in print prior to now.

Edited November 30, 2005 by DamienB

[Berkut RnR]

I can only suggest you or he are mistaken - radio simply doesn't sound like that. The best it could possibly be would be a recreation of the real thing, but even that doesn't appear likely given what the pilots have put in print prior to now.

 

In Argentina Radio sound like that. :)

[Mothman]

In Argentina Radio sound like that. :)

 

Nah. Those A-4B in 1982 had Sirius satellite/digital radio, CD player, subwoofer, and DVD player for movie playback in the HUD.

 

The recordings sound very real to me. Maybe it's not a continious recording but rather a compilation to skip the periods with radio silence... who knows.

 

There are accounts of A-4B/C having to abort missions because of radio malfunctions. I think that the chances of getting shot down increases when the radio is not working as the pilots should relyon radio communications rather than hand signs to warn their comrades about incoming bandits and missiles. Without the radio working, you'd better rtb, imho.

[ezequiel]

Hello, not if this I finish, but they can, me can pass the Link? , this it does not work to me, anybody me the quick thing? , I pass my mail to them: eze.dday@gmail.com therefore I lend it.

 

Thank you very much

SuoperEtendard

[+Dante-JT]

Hello, not if this I finish, but they can, me can pass the Link? , this it does not work to me, anybody me the quick thing? , I pass my mail to them: eze.dday@gmail.com therefore I lend it.

Thank you very much

SuoperEtendard

 

 

Download in this link:

http://www.conflictomalvinas.com.ar/descar...s.com.ar-01.rar

 

(uncompress with Unrar compression utility to be able to play)