PraetorH

...And, for the love of Delta wings, some Delta Dart ideas: http://www.456fis.org/THE%20F-106/DoD_Boeing_ATF_DF-ST-87-12790%5B1%5D.jpg http://www.456fis.org/THE%20F-106/F106x%5B2%5D.jpg http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=4514 Oh, FC, has this beauty been released?

Thanks for the note, I'll see to it!

Somehow I doubt Croatia would need such a plane Still very nice, russouk!

Cookie! The first Bond Girl ever http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JsOJBGYDJnQ/TCCgTgabf0I/AAAAAAAAA64/ivc0XZ314Mo/s1600/ursula-andress-01.jpg Thanks Frank, I am still working a bit too improve the skin, although one usually does not see that on screens but only in game. However an idea I took from the great BAC TSR.2 by Bongodiver and Sundowner is the gold film for the windscreen. This was done to protect the pilot against the nuclear flash. Since German pilots also asked for a gold film on their helmet visors at least, it is quite a possible what-if. Also it looks good in combination with the anti-flash white, I think.

Western birds duking it out, F-4 vs F-4, F-102 vs F-102... That is a very interesting idea! I hope it will progress well.

A-5G Back-story and more pics here: http://combatace.com/topic/63800-anything-goes-a-5-sac-and-luftwaffe/

Hello, as I wrote already, I paused my Mirage IIIG (77) project for a little while to restart freshly. Meanwhile I made this is fictional fun story about a German participation in SAC, so do not expect too much, even though bits and bytes are factual as you can read in the notes. But pics first: (cookie for the first who guesses the girl in the pic ) The German Search for a Long Range Bomber In the later 50ies, the German government in its desire for nuclear weapons was pressing hard for more active role in the NATO strikes. Especially the secretary of defense, Franz Josef Strauss, looked for an aircraft that could reach any target between Rhine and Volga …and nuke it. (1). In 1960 Eisenhower, still trusting in Massive Retaliation and the deterrence it offered, believed German long range bombers over Moscow with nuclear ordnance a very deterring thought for the Soviets. So he agreed, but Germany had a price to pay. The new bomber wing was to be under SAC control and even outside Luftwaffe chain of command if the SAC required so. This was regarded as a small price on the way to nuclear power and a good opportunity to learn (2). Enter the A-5G Strauss rushed ahead and requested the B-58 Hustler, however both US and German Air Force officials pointed out that the Luftwaffe had neither experience with heavy bombers nor supersonic aircraft, much less support capability (3). A smaller two-engined bomber was deemed more suitable, as the German airfield were closer to the main targets anyway. Top-requirements were speed and survivability in face of the massive SAM line throughout Middle Europe. It was anticipated that a small group of fast bombers could break through that line during the chaos of the first air battles. At that time, the US Navy was coincidentally phasing out the A-5A due to a shift in nuclear policy which emphasized missiles launched by submarines. North American realized the A-5 would be relegated to reconnaissance service only in the Navy (4), and offered a somewhat downgraded A-5A with simplified avionic systems. The navigation system for example was replaced by the LN3 Litton, which was also used on Luftwaffe new standard aircraft, the F-104G. Likewise, the engines were J79 G-11A. While providing slightly less thrust they were used on the F-104G as well. The most radical modification was the addition of Sidewinder launch rails, although it was not sure how exactly they would be used in a war. Some advocated splitting the flight in a main bomber section and an escort section, while others favoured them for self defense during the return. Ultimately it had little operational use and was more of a comfort for the pilots, assuring them there would be a return (5). The combat radius of the Vigilante would allow bombing even Moscow from Munich and fly back - in theory. Strategisches Kampfgeschwader 11 Aptly, the new unit equipped with A-5G bombers was called Strategisches Kampfgeschwader 11 (Strategic Bomber Wing). Pilots who had shown the greatest stress resistance were handpicked from the fighter bomber wings. Oberstleutnant Hanns Heise became the unit’s commander because he had commanded KG 40, one of Germany’s few long range bomber wings in WWII, then flying Fw-200 and He-177 (6). Soon StratKG 11 took up this legacy donning their aircraft with the orbited earth of KG 40, but since they were operating under SAC command, they not only added the SAC stripe to their aircrafts’ noses but also set the orbited earth against a stripe of stars in dark night, illustrating their commitment to SAC. Like the British V-bombers the German Vigilantes were painted with an anti-flash white wraparound to reflect some of the thermal radiation of a nuclear explosion. And like the British they forgot to pale their insignia at first... (1) This is actually true but often forgotten. The Starfighter was chosen for the Luftwaffe due to its excellent low lever strike capabilities. (2) Eisenhower indeed did, but he would never have allowed German strategic bombers, nor had anyone else done. The Soviet Union was angry enough about nuclear sharing and even threatened Kennedy with war should Germany get any more involved. The German public on the other hand did not know much about nuclear sharing and considered the Starfighter an interceptor first. Moreover the Luftwaffe itself had never intended to wage strategic air war, leaving that role to SAC. (3) Germany had massive problems operating Starfighters for various reasons including pilot training, maintenance and shortage of manpower. The Luftwaffe simply could not handle a Mach-2 aircraft in the early 60ies. A monster like the Hustler was absolutely inadequate. However, so would have been the A-5! (4) This is what happened… (5) Morale was a problem for the fighter bomber pilots assigned to units with nuclear sharing, especially early on. This combined with the rather inexperienced Luftwaffe might explain the wish for Sidewinders. Of course, I just wanted something to shoot with ;) (6) The name of the unit follows Bundeswehr regulations and the numbers from 11 to 29 were not used for any wing. Heise later became the commander of the German forces in the US. Luftwaffe units using old Luftwaffe insignia was actually quite frequent. regards PS: thanks to Julhelm, his A-5 and his template!

Go SAC!

Eine andere Frage: wäre es möglich, den Starfighter am Anfang der 70er einem Upgrade zu unterziehen, das ganz im Sinne Kelly Johnsons war. Ich meine einen extrem simplen Jäger, kein Schnick-Schnack, nur Kanonen und Sidewinders, und alles, das weg kann, soll auch weg, damit der Jäger so leicht wie möglich wird. Vielleicht könnte man auch ein besseres Triebwerk einbauen. Das MTU J79-J1K ist zwar verbessert worden gegenüber dem originalen J79 G-11A, aber der Schub wurde nicht erhöht. Kurz: Schnell, agil und einfach. Und macht so ein Jäger in den 70ern überhaupt noch Sinn?

Blast! That is a great idea - it's on the list (which is unfortunatly quite long already...) Nah, still within NATO. Although, now as you mentioned it...

There was no ban on the export of the A-10 and certainly for busting Soviet tanks other nations than the US had an equal if not greater interest... It is just that those nations (continental European NATO) had just used up their financial resources on their own projects, and one of those, the Tornado, was supposed to be their tank buster. PS: if you think that is a sacrilege, you better should not see my current project on a US bird

Och naja, die Möglichkeit mittels Langstreckenbombern A-Waffen intelligent ins Ziel zu führen, finde ich nicht zu verachten. Dazu zu die Möglichkeit bei Spannungen immer in der Luft zu sein... Man darf die Luftverteidigungsmöglichkeiten beider Seiten nicht überschätzen. Bei Skyshield I und II legte man den gesamten Flugverkehr lahm, um die Verteidigung der USA zu testen. Als Aggressoren fungierten englische Vulcan-Bomber, also hochfliegende und langsame Bomber, die aber fast ohne Verluste alle Ziele erreichten und wieder zurückflogen. Über Kosten-Nutzen-Rechnungen brauchen wir bei diesen Monster nicht zu reden, zumal man ja davon richtig viele brauchte, wenn man jemanden beindrucken wollte. Die paar französischen Mirage IVA sind das perfekte Beispiel, wie es nicht geht. Die waren fast schon bei der Indienststellung veraltet. Die Piloten wussten auch recht genau, dass ihr Angriff auf die SU ein Selbstmordkommando war. Die Strategie dahinter war aber so oder so Unsinn: wahlloses city-busting als Rache für einen erfolgreichen Angriff. :mega_shok:

Ah, long range interceptors for Argentine are a great idea, not only for hunting bombers but also for taking out the air cover of the British fleet. But they would have used camo I think, as they did with their other aircraft. Moreover a camouflaged Fiddler might look really cool

I love interceptors! I'll try it out later for sure...

If anything I'd go for the Mirage 4000 But I am not a fan of all too modern aviation, so 80ies are usually not my cup of tea. Also one should remember the Eurofighter started with French participation, maybe they would have gone for it, or made it a German/French project (even though it is unlikely considering France's claims in the Future-European-Fighter Aircraft-Programme).

Never said it was a hard one But in the version I saw, the fighters were only symbols, which resembled F-104 a lot...

Guess what movie I have seen lately...

You are right Gunrunner, an interceptor would need the fuel rather than the ECM, especially as it was to operate behind or above the own Hawk/Nike-line. I will limit the ECM to a pod. 8 Rounds more may not sound like much, but they can make the difference between a kill or not, so I go for it. Thanks Viggen! The Mirage fort he Luftwaffe is a quite likely what-if, since it was the most promising contender to the Starfighter. It is only natural asking how this bird would have developed in Luftwaffe-service since it had plenty of upgrade possibilities. I am going to hold this project for a short time. A small break makes it possible to restart freshly and see errors one did not see as one cannot see the wood for the trees. In the meantime I persue a less historically accurate project...

Sagen wir mal so, die Luftwaffe sah kein politisches Problem darin, die F-105 zu beschaffen. Die hatte immerhin auch eine beträchtliche konventionelle Zuladung und war zu konventionellem Kampfeinsatz fähig, anders als A-5. Nur wie gesagt, das galt bei FJS/Kammhuber eh nicht. Die Schwierigkeiten der Doppelbeschaffung waren es, die der Kombi 105/104 hauptsächlich den Garaus machte. Ich würde der Lw allerdings auch zutrauen, mit einem Flugzeug zu rechnen, dass die USA gar nicht freigegeben hätten... Die F-8 als Marineflieger sieht sicher schick aus und ist auch recht leicht zu machen. Die Marinebemahlung hat ja den Vorteil einfach und doch sehr ansprechend zu sein. Ich habe mein Mirage-Projekt kurzfristig unterbrochen. Nach einer kleinen Pause fallen einem Fehler auf, die man vorher in der eignen Betriebsblindheit nicht gesehen hat. In der Zwischenzeit widme ich mich einem kleinen Spaßprojekt, der Beteiligung der Luftwaffe an SAC. Historisch gesehen völliger Käse, das hätte sich Deutschland nie leisten können und die Sowjetunion sah deutsche strategische Bomber als Kriegsgrund an (Kennedy hatte man damit direkt gedroht!). Aber ich habe gerade Fail Safe gesehen. ;)

I should have said that earlier, but I second the wish for a Mirage 4000!

Highly interesting stuff gentlemen The basis for the Mirage IIIG, and consequently my Mirage IIIG (77), is a IIIE, for two reasons: first PGC made it so and I am working with that. Second, he is actually correct in doing so. The Luftwaffe required the double role of nuclear striker (yes, nuclear) and air defence fighter to kill Soviet attackers breaking through the HAWK/NIKE line. In public, the German government emphasized the latter of course I think I got to remove the doppler nav radar to save weight. This Mirage is not needed in AG-missions anyway, it is exclusively for the two fighter wings Luftwaffe had, JG 71 "Richthofen" and JG 74 "Mölders". The fighter bomber wings and the naval wings get the MRCA/Tornado as planned. I also decided not to put in an internal ECM, but it will be capable of using US and French ECM pods. The Luftwaffe bought these pods in great quantity during the Yom Kippur war, when they realized how vulnerable their aircraft were against modern SAMs. I figured an effective ECM might be too heavy/large to be carried internally, or is not? Also, would it be possible getting more ammo for the BK in somehow? Both, the Super 530F and a British-German coperation for a new all-weather missile are not bad ideas! I will think about it.

Indeed! I also think about the Norm 90J with Japanse markings. Now that would be as odd as it would be cool, a French Mirage with German camo and Japanese markings Maybe later!

Stimmt, das R ist zu groß, aber die decals sind sowieso noch falsch. Bei der Korrektur wird auch das Geschwaderwappen runterskaliert. Die skin ist zwar nicht soo schlecht, aber die Flächen sind noch zu vertikal ausgerichtet, also entlang der Achse Nose-Nozzle, was z.T. dem entsprechenden Template, z.T. meiner Unfähigkeit geschuldet ist. Dieser Eindruck verstärkt sich durch den schlanken Rumpf der Mirage im Gegensatz zum breiten Rumpf der Phantom. http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/6610/img00001f.jpg Die Flächen müssten stärker in die Horizontale gehen, aber das ist nicht so einfach... egal, ich werde mich später noch mal ransetzen. Die A-5 wäre v.a. politisch gesehen schwierig geworden. Der Öffentlichkeit konnte man den Starfighter ja so gut verkaufen, weil er ein dezidierter Jäger war und gegen Defensivmaßnahmen hatte niemand etwas einzuwenden. Bei ATTACKER 5 wäre diese Argumentation schwierig geworden. Die Jungs von JG 71 und 74 hätten wahrscheinlich auch etwas dagegen gehabt, jedoch wurde den Jagdfliegern nicht übermäßig viel Gehör geschenkt. FJS und Kammhuber wollten ihren Striker. Interessanterweise waren während des Entscheidungsprozesses um die Beschaffung des Starfighter auch mehrfach Beschaffungen in der Diskussion, d.h. die 104 durch ein anderes Muster zu ergänzen. Die erste Möglichkeit war die F-105 für die JaBoG und F-104 für die JG einzusetzen. Das Hauptargument für die F-105 war die höhere Zuladung, nur war das ein untergeordnetes Argument, wenn man über striker sprach... So ging man davon aus, dass die F-104 den Job der F-105 auch erledigen konnte. Ich behaupte allerdings, dass angesichts der Spezialisierung beider Muster ein Einsatz in ihrem ureignen Elementen besser gewesen wäre als die Zweckentfremdung der F-104. Außerdem man stelle sich vor: eine F-104G getrimmt auf LV, d.h. Luftüberlegenheit und Abfangjagd in Mitteleuropa. Das wäre cool geworden! (und wesentlich näher an Johnsons Idee) Die zweite Möglichkeit entstand aus dem politischen Wunsch die Mirage einzuführen, den FJS lange hegte. Da wäre die Mirage als Jäger und der Starfighter als Jabo eingesetzt worden. Letztlich wollte man im Sinne der Standardisierung aber nur ein Muster und als sich DeGaulle und Strauss verkrachten, war es eh aus mit der Mirage.

So here is the Blue-Grey (screenshot edited) and a try on Norm 81. It did not really work out well, so I have to practise skinning a lot before I can get a better Norm 81. I still lack a proper spatial sense and Norm 81 is a difficult camo. So many different colours! Anyway, here we go:

Kleine Mirage-Pause: mein erster Versuch einer Norm 81. Ist nicht wirklich super-gelungen, aber ich bin auf dem Weg... Mir fehlt noch das räumliche Vorstellungsvermögen um effektiv zu skinnen. So ist es zu viel try-and-error. Außerdem ist Norm 81 dank der vielen Farben so oder so ein Horror.