busdriver

Nope.

LOL...too funny.

My apologies, honestly. I'll work on that. Did you noticed that I never use WVR? There's a reason for that. From my experience an engagement is either BVR or some form of either 1) at the merge or 2) a visual fight. I know...dubya-vee-ahr looks & sounds like the natural opposite to BVR to you. It looks and sounds extremely "not fighter pilot" to me. Whenever I see WVR I just think visual.

In early 1988 at Kunsan we were tasked to play bandits for the Eagles ORI. They deployed to Kwangju but had to fight their way into the ROK, land at Kwangju then relaunch a squadron's worth (or so) on sweeps and escorts of F-4s from Taegu. The other F-16 sqdn already had their Block 30 jets and they played Floggers (face shooters). We simulated Fishbeds. My sqdn CC lead 18 or 20 of us (think we had a couple ground aborts at EOR). The only guys on the UHF radios were Lead and his #2. Everybody else stayed silent on UHF, but we had seperate VHF freqs for each pair. We taxied silently to the runway in sequence. Tower cleared the formation for takeoff and the first four took the runway. As the first pair rolled, the following pair moved forward to allow the next pair on the runway. 20 seconds spacing, standard for a combat load with bombs. When we were all airborne Lead sent us over to GCI, only #2 answered. When Lead told GCI we were airborne, they asked how many in the flight. Lead answered...Two. GCI keyed his mike, "Ummmm, ermmmm...ahh Copy that." We would not have much in the way of GCI assistance. We spread out as two-ships all over the ROK, entered our CAPs and waited...and waited...and waited. My Lead and I were on the west coast south of Osan. At a nominal 420 KGS it's only 10 minutes from our CAP to the southern coast. It was a gorgeous, cold, clear day. We got a call in the blind from GCI..."30 plus Eagles inbound...40 Eagles inbound." Oh great! One more quick pump around the CAP, noses hot toward the south. Shortly there after I started seeing the four-abreast contrails as they dove through the contrail level. Off to the east and southeast pairs of contrails appeared...now some circular ones just like the BoB. It truly was awesome...all across the sky. Heading south I was on the west side of the formation, my Lead decided to pump again. GCI is calling in the blind..."Kill F-16 right hand turn at FL350...Kill F-16 left hand turn at 9000...(you get the picture, "All F-16s in the ROK are dead, Eagle 01, out."). I told Lead I had picked up a pair of contacts...20 miles...high aspect and closing fast..."Two's crickets" (my ALR-69 was lit up and tweedling). Too late, he didn't see them on his REO since he had started a left turn...oh f*ck...this was not going to end well for us. It didn't. Another in-place turn back south and Lead gets a contact to the SE and points that way...but my contacts were SW...hmmm oh there they are..."Two's engaged defensive Eagles...[s**t Lead]...Break right...he's closing to guns...Fox two...Fox two...(his wingman must have called his break cuz he puked out flares and broke down and away)" My Lead died, I died. It was painless, but extremely instructional. It was over extremely fast for us. One Lt brought back video tape of a gun tracking solution up above FL400, but he had already died I'd guess. We headed for the Tanker, topped off, went to a new CAP, loitered, used a piddle pack, had a sandwich and some water, then waited for the next round. Second round GCI braodcast, "Phantoms airborne, Eagles airborne." Lead picked up what turned out to be a pair of low altitude F-4s with F-15 trailers. He opted to roll in on the lead pair of the 2 + 2. Lead miscalculated the turn and got in a tail chase (they were doing .95mach or so) I was sampling the trailers up to the turn...and the Eagles killed us both. The gouge back then said if there is more than 8 NMs between target elements, go for the lead pair. Less than 8 NMs go for the trailers. We didn't match their speed coming around the corner, so the trailers quickly closed and killed us. We played pretty good NKAF bandits (poorly trained). Another Lt got into a tail chase with a high speed F-4, he was reviewing his tape with a dozen of us (Sqdn brass not in the room). I started hooting, "s**t yer gonna go supersonic at 500 feet over a populated area..." guys started laughing. The Lt stopped his tape, left the room for a bit. When he returned about 15-20 minutes later the CC asked for his tape (must have been tip off). Miraculously the tape became corrupt at .97 mach for a short period. When the picture cleared up he was slowing and climbing, pulling off from the F-4. We laughed. No sonic boom complaints were filed as far as we knew.

Quite true. And through trail and error (lots of error) they discovered maneuvers and chaff intervals that worked very effectively. (According to a couple notes I'm looking at from my attendance at ECP school).

I can't recall the source, but somewhere out there on the "internets" is a discussion of the weight gain to improvement ratio. ISTR it worked out to something like 1000 pounds per year. For a knife fight, horizontal or vertical the A would still have the better (relative) nose authority. A number you could rely upon if you glanced at your airspeed...250 KIAS; that slow and you could still go over the top (loop or Immelmann). We had a target arm teaching BFM academics during RTU. He distilled our BFM problem thusly: Ask yourself, "Am I inside the bandit's turn circle?" If yes, go kill him. If no, drive to his circle and kill him. The C most definitely has a superior radar. I never met an Eagle guy that didn't love his jet. Two motors, powerful radar, the ability to "reach out and touch some one" (obtuse reference to AT&T long distance commercial from the 80s), some really cool avionics features. Things like NCTR. Or let's say they're going to train/fight in a specific area (MOA for US folks, TRA for EU types). They can program the corner points of the area into their Nav computer, connect the dots so to speak on their radar screen, and have superior SA. And this was 30 years ago. The F-16A could only display one solitary Nav point on the REO (radar electro optical). Eagles liked to sweep or enter the MOA/TRA in their "Wall" formation above the contrail level, then at an appropriate distance BVR , descend/dive through the contrails. It made me smile every time I saw it. My first choice out of pilot training was the F-15, second was RF-4. The F-16 didn't interest me in the least. When I got to Germany and started seeing all kinds of airplanes, and having immensely enjoyable but totally unauthorized 1-v-1 or 1-v-2 or 1-v-4 dogfights while staying below Germany's PCA (Positive Control Airspace...radar controlled above 7000') I was most impressed with the F-16. Figuring there wouldn't be a whole lot of BVR fighting, I decided I wasn't interested in flying a HUGE airplane (bigger than my big RF-4).

From JediMaster I don't follow what you're trying to say with "Deception jamming isn't as susceptible..." and I'm not sure why you might think a pilot would not now he's being subjected to jamming. Suffice to say he knows...honestly...he knows. And the radar knows...it's telling him.

Derk asks about the maneuverablity of a C model versus an A model. According to sqdn mates that flew both...indeed the lighter A model was (seemed) more maneuverable. According to "Target Arms" (FWS graduates) the C's software and LEF (Leading Edge Flap) programming was different. Add that to a heavier jet. From my prospective, one or two sorties flying against a C, I felt like I had the advantage in a turning fight.

Try poking around Secret Projects and you might find what you're looking for. Steve Davies is a knowledgable author. To be fair I'd have to confine my remarks to the F-16A of 20 years ago. We didn't have a BVR capability so it wasn't a major consideration for us. Against a BIG airplane like the F-15, we picked up a tally pretty far out. That's one of the reasons they would fly wider lateral and vertical splits than us. Even in a 2-v-2 they often had a very hard time getting a tally on both of us. Only F-15 guys could review their video tapes (unless they were sanatized) due to some of the very cool sh*t they had.

Nicely done!

I know you're asking about the MFD radar display, but a quick look in your HUD shows a high aspect contact with high Vc...almost 900 Knots. You'll merge in about 18 seconds.

Straight from the pages of the Dash 1, on page 1-2 it says The aircraft is powered by a single F100-PW-200 afterburning turbofan engine. Refer to figure 1-1. Maximum thrust is approximately 25,000 pounds. And on page 1-13 there is this The aircraft is powered by a single F100-PW-220 afterburning engine. Refer to figure 1-6. Maximum thrust is approximately 25,000 pounds. I can't recall that it ever came up in academics. I'm not an engineer.

Phone call to the squadron from the Command Post, after a phone call to them from the HTACC at Osan. 30 minute notice to launch a two-ship to intercept a known Soviet ELINT target up the west coast of the ROK. And correction, it was not a Tu-95...I just looked at the picture again. It was a Tu-16R. My first clue? No props and a swept wing... Anyway, an A model and a B model (with an AF photographer in the backseat) were short notice tasked...GCI vectors..."No Lock" intercept by the F-16s. Like all the pictures you've seen the rear guns were stowed (pointed skyward). Normally the ROKAF handled these intercepts.

I have some old issues of a General Dynamics magazine called Code One , from Jan 89 there is a small article about the "first" firing of an AIM-7 from an A model in the fall of 88. Another article from a 1988 issue provided an overview of the ADF transformation. Here's an online version of Code One's F-16 Evolution you'll find that the Block 25 indeed had the hardware & software to employ AIM-120s, but the missile wasn't ready before the fall of the Berlin Wall. JediMaster says Just so my remarks are not left open to interpretation, I'm discussing the situation during the Cold War. Your point is taken, the F-16 was not designed as an interceptor with BVR capabilities. In terms of air defense, the F-15 and F-4 with AIM-7s were superior. Air defense was not an F-16 primary mission. At the time I was in USAFE (RF-4Cs 81-84) the F-15s were not tasked with escort, they were there to provide air defense. At least that's what we were briefed. Doesn't mean they couldn't be tasked for it or weren't willing. So a guy flying a surface attack mission in an F-16A with "heaters and gun" could certainly expect to go up against everything the WP could put in the air. I doubt a PVO asset like the (4 G) MiG-31 would have be encountered west of, or for that matter, along the FLOT/FSCL but perhaps. Those unmaneuverable interceptors would become big fat targets at the merge. But everybody was prepared and expected to fight Floggers and Fulcrums. I do not recall them having autonomous BVR clearance since they were tied to GCI. WP simply had us out numbered, so the environment and logically the ROE did not permit unlimited F-4/F-15 BVR engagement. In Korea (late 80s) the USAF F-4s at Osan and Taegu as well as ROKAF F-4s were the primary air defense assets. The F-15s from Kadena were tasked with offensive and defensive counter-air...once they got to the ROK. However, on my wall is a picture of one of my sqdn's F-16A on the wing of a Soviet Tu-95. The A model is carrying a CL tank and two AIM-9s. It wasn't our primary or secondary mission...but some guys got lucky.

GalmOne you made me pull out the charts. First off, I flew Block 10s (in RTU) and Block 15s (PACAF and TAC). We carried either ALQ-119s or 131s at the time. I don't have the exact numbers, but let's say an ECM pod weighs a nominal 500 pounds (227 Kg). The drag penalty of the pod alone was not bad. It was "not carted" meaning there were no explosive cartridges allowing you to jettison it. So...on an otherwise clean jet with a pair of AIM-9s, it would not be terribly burdensome. We did not fly BFM/ACM/DACT sorties with pods as a rule, too hard on them I suppose plus then we'd have to hang two wing tanks on the jet. Having said that, my sqdn at Moody AFB sent 6 jets out to Nellis to support the F-15 FWS. They flew out there with an ECM pod on the CL, and a baggage pod (pilot's clothes)...and in formation with a tanker. So these guys spent a week fangs out, hair on fire trying to be badass bandits for the Eagles. Sadly I can't report how it was, I had announced I was getting out, so I was not allowed to go. I honestly don't know if the guys flying Block 25s ever carried or trained with AIM-7s. Pretty sure the guys at Shaw AFB did not, not sure about Hahn. I mean we NEVER talked about those jets having any BVR capability. I could be seriously in error, but ISTR that the Block 15 ADF mod for the ANG was the first operational use of AIM-7s on the F-16. Plus...I was at Kunsan during the conversion from A models to the C model. I was one of the last A model only guys in the sqdn. There was no BVR discussions/tactics or training. I was the sqdn Training Officer.

GalmOne here's a better discussion from 2002. Su-30MK Beats F-15C 'Every Time' It mentions the tactic at the time was 20 years old...go figure. So maybe it has not been fixed.

Absolutely positively...no worries...I was not offended. Eagle guys said much worse. As to the first part...I suspect it has been corrected. I would hope it has been fixed. To get an idea, albeit as a simmer, this might help . In regards to why it was easier for the F-16, IMO it's the wide range of speeds for corner velocity (think maneuverablity and nose authority). The F-18 excels in this regard also. I felt quite comfortable at the merge vs an F-15 (if I wasn't hauling two external tanks). For me the F-18 was a more difficult opponent...when you get really slow the Hornet has better nose authority (bastiges). The Eagle excels BVR no doubt about it. Way back during my time in the ROK, many anticipated scenarios had the Eagles from Kadena showing up for "two weeks" (killing all the NKAF) then going back to Kadena. That left USAF F-4s (2 sqdns dual tasked A-A & A-G), A-10s (1 sqdn), F-16s (2 sqdns), OV-10s (1 sqdn) and a bunch of ROKAF F-5s and F-4s to conduct the air-land battle. Plus there were 2 F-4 sqdns down at Clark in the PI as reinforcements.

LOL...as a guy that flew A model Vipers in the 80s I have a different POV than your assertion the F-16 was a secondary fighter. I was also what was called an Electronic Combat Pilot (poor man's EWO) in my sqdn. There was nothing in our mind set or training about waiting for the Eagles to clear the skies of bad guys for us. Oh, indeed that would be the preferred option. But we planned/trained to be self sufficient. Sneak up? I had a co-worker that was a ANG F-4D driver that snuck up on a flight of two Eagles. I did sneak up on a pair at low altitude in Germany during REFORGER, but I was in an unarmed RF-4C. I never snuck up on an Eagle during DACT. But we knew how to exploit a "feature" in their radar to arrive at the merge alive. It was energy depleting, it was risky (die pre-merge or arrive without a tally...poor SA).

Terrain Following? Suspect it would be illuminated when the autopilot is coupled to a TF mode.

Out of curiosity (not criticism), why would you want to use KTAS instead of KIAS? I've not done any ICE-T...Indicated > Calibrated > Equivalent > True air speed conversion problems since UPT 32 years ago. And all the F-16 AVTR video I ever watched showed KIAS.

Those sure are pretty!