"Cannons?" A manual to making SPAD XII Ca. :)

[Gr.Viper 131]

http://www.storks.cwc.net/guy/s12.html

 

I'd really like to see a 37-mm cannon on any ingame plane. Turns out that SPAD 12 had it

 

Replaced one of SPAD 13 machine guns with 37 Hotchkiss M1902(look in gundata.ini fo entry). Point one - this baby has reeeeaaaly big recoil, so you'll wanna aim carefully. Point two - it rips Beutepanzer apart with one hit, didn't try it on planes but I bet they won't like it. Point three - I don't know how to make it a) manually reloaded after each and every shot b) produce a lot of smoke to obscure pilot's view.

 

And thanks to the game engine for the recoil and different handling of the plane added without any work on my side

 

yup, cannon in air-to-air is 'one shot-one kill' weapon. If you can score a hit. Did 25 shots - 6 hits - 6 kills. Then I got so busy trying to nail another two-seater that I let Fokker to tail me. Well, that was fair. As soon as anyone manages to add smoke and reload, cannons would be pretty balanced with other weapons.. maybe even worse than machine guns :) But its 37 MM!!!

 

another update - taken Lewis on SE5a as example. So now I have

 

[internalGun2]

SystemType=FIXED_GUN

GunTypeName=37MM_HOTCHKISS_M1902

InputName=FIRE_PRIMARY_GUN

GunGroup=2

MuzzlePosition=0.18,0.43,0.46

LightPosition=0.18,0.43,0.46

AimAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0

MaxAmmo=1

NumReloads=25

ReloadTime=8.0

EjectShells=TRUE

EjectPosition=0.45,-0.25,-0.24

EjectVelocity=0.5,-1.0,-0.0

MinExtentPosition= 0.24,-0.52, 0.43

MaxExtentPosition= 0.12, 0.43, 0.54

GunFireAnimationID=8

 

The problem is that reload sound was done for Lewis and is 6 secs long. So you might set it back to 6, or just wait a bit after reload sound finishes.

With such reload period you really think twice before firing

 

----------------

So, here are the so-called mods made via editing ini of SPAD XIII

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autom...p;showfile=3777

Edited January 4, 2007 by Gr.Viper

[+bortdafarm 1]

well done! he he! i was reading that web page last night!! tell you what tho for the reload time..i can't help thinking it could probably do with being set to something like 30 seconds at the very least even for the normal machine guns..as i can't imagine trying to reload the lewis guns (especially on the Se5a) in anything less than half a minute and how on earth they'd have done this whilst actualy in combat ..you'd have to break of the attack and risk death by flying straight an level whilst you did it...pity the poor rear gunners trying to reload whilst being thrown about by evasive maneuvers..!

 

wouldn't be too difficult to knock up a reload sound that lasted 30 seconds..

this might be a way to reduce the players kill tally a bit (and add a bit of uncertainty to the AI as well)

might be a bit over the top but it's a possibility..

[Gr.Viper 131]

The funny thing is that, what I got by such simple edit nearly perfectly matches the description here

http://www.wwiaviation.com/french1916.html

Мах speed is just about 10-15 km/h higher. Can tweak it by reducing hp.

Stalls like hell. Gun is inaccurate so even good aim might result in a miss. But you still have a MG which seem to be historically accurate...

 

But seeing this after just one hit is worth it

 

Called by GG the ‘machine magique’, the single-shot 37mm cannon equipped Spad S XII. Ca. was flown in combat by GG and he claimed several victories with it. The hand-loading of the gun in flight, and the noxious fumes and the recoil produced in the Spad XII. Ca’s cockpit when it was fired, made the whole enterprise a highly hazardous affair. So, despite the incredible destructive effect the cannon had on the targeted enemy aircraft and crew, any idea of mass production of the combination was dropped.

 

Only 300 were built.

 

I think, increasing reload time AND reducing ammo to 15-18(I can't find a reference anywhere, so it's a guess) would be nice. And I think it should be made a separate aircraft (mine is just a SPAD edit) with availability set to rare or something...

[+bortdafarm 1]

yes the Spad 7 was available in 1916 aswell so it could be usefull for the early war scenarios etc..

do a version with just the single Mg set to common and a version with the cannon set to rare...slow them both down as you say

 

easy way to do this is via the data ini

 

FlightControl

StallSpeed=20.59

CruiseSpeed=30.12

ClimbSpeed=22.88

CornerSpeed=37.93

MaxG=3.20

MaxSpeedSL=51.39

MachLimit=0.100

PitchDamper=0.1

RollDamper=0.0

YawDamper=0.0

 

the

 

MachLimit=0.100

sets a "brick wall" limit where-by the aircraft cannot exceed this speed...(not sure how it affects a vertical dive? tho)

 

 

edit

 

ive attached a 20 second long reload sound wav...(it's a low res one so it's a bit muffled)

(i find it's the sound files that cuase me the most FPS issues in this game..)

 

im guessing it is possible to edit the soundlist.ini to add a new reload wav and then edit and add the new reload sound to the sound section of the aircrafts data.ini

gun_reload.wav

Edited December 25, 2006 by bortdafarm

[Gr.Viper 131]

Just one problem. SPAD XII had steering wheel in cockpit :) 13-th will do for now... but...

That's the most I found about the 12th cockpit interior...

http://www.wwi-models.org/Photos/Fre/SPAD12/index.html

[+bortdafarm 1]

Just one problem. SPAD XII had steering wheel in cockpit :) 13-th will do for now... but...

That's the most I found about the 12th cockpit interior...

http://www.wwi-models.org/Photos/Fre/SPAD12/index.html

let the historians worry about detail like that i reckon!!

[Gr.Viper 131]

MaxSpeedSL= speed in meters per second at sea level.. googled, found a link to other topic at CombatAce

and in the engine section

SLPowerDry=is in watts as conversion experiment shows

 

So I'll set them to what that reference sheet says... By the way I saw some note saying that 12-th first flew only in summer 1917

[+bortdafarm 1]

ah yup i was thinking of the spad 7...

 

on the steering whell thing...i'm sure if it were possible that the pilot of a cannon armed spad would get his engineer to replace the wheel with a stick as that wheel would make reloading the cannon virtually impossible...even on the ground??? that's one of the things i imagine happenned frequently in real life ..with paint scheemes and just about everything in fact...alterations made...bits cnnabilised from other aircraft not enough time to repaint the cnnabilised parts to fit the scheme on the repaired aircraft etc..patches on the wings "borowed airlons rudders wheeels etc etc...so i feel there is plenty of room for manuever

[Gr.Viper 131]

It would be impossible to use the stick. Look at link with the drawing

a steering wheel mounted to an inverted 'u' shaped control column with the cannon breech below the wheel

So, I suppose, the wheel column goes forth and back, controlling stabs. The wheel turn controls ailerons. And the butt of the cannon is sticking through the arch of the column somewhere between pilot's legs. Wish, someone modeled this machine :)

 

Anyway. Here is SPAD 7 and 12 with decreased max speed and horsepower. Decreased CornerSpeed too(otherwise it would be higher than max)... it was about 95,5% for SPAD 13, so for these two I did the same ratio. Didn't touch climb and stall(well, this one is airframe-dependent).

 

*Removed* S. VII set to be in action since September 1916

*Removed* S. XVII is RARE, service start July 1917

 

Installation: In the Aircraft folder create folders SPAD7 and SPAD12. Unpack archives accordingly. Then go to SPAD13 folder and copy all camo folders to SPAD12 and SPAD7. Otherwise you'll be flying SPADs white as snow with only cockpits coloured.

 

I didn't touch cannon reload times or ammo(did increase to 400 for 7th single vickers). Both me and AI seem to have a hard time using cannons. It's useless against Gothas, by the way, - they shred you to pieces before you can get close enough not to miss. And 8 sec reload is more than enough to allow the target get out of sight.

Edited December 25, 2006 by Gr.Viper

[Gr.Viper 131]

Arrgh... since it's nearly impossible to find out anything about the 12th

SPAD12_a.rar

Again. Service date set to 12/1916 - 12/1917. Reload - 10 sec. Ammo 20. Don't worry, you still have the Vickers.

 

SPAD7_a.rar

Minor edit - Service set to August 1916

[+bortdafarm 1]

EXCELLENT STUFF many thanks!!

[+Tailspin 3]

Now this is pretty cool. You could probably get the muzzle flash in the right place by manipulating the MuzzlePosition= and LightPosition= coordinates to match the prop spinner location. I looked and couldn't find any spinner coordinates in the data.ini so it'd have to be a trial and error approach.

[+Tailspin 3]

Well the first set will be 0.0 as that is the horizontal centerline. Lets assume the longitudinal centerline passes through the prop hub too , so another set will be 0.0. That leaves the distance forward from the vertical centerline which is either .43 or .46, I'm betting its .46. Making a lot of assumptions but this ought to get you close enough to make adjustments.

[Gr.Viper 131]

Heh.. tried just now.. vertical 0.0 seems to be gun sight level. And distance forward seems to be counted from the nose backwards. Creepy... wrong

 

Hm... Try setting to this :)

 

MuzzlePosition=0.0,0.5,0.0

LightPosition=0.0,0.5,0.0

 

We're getting closer...

 

Ok. The final figures are

 

MuzzlePosition=0.0,1.2,0.0

LightPosition=0.0,1.3,0.0

 

Notice the difference between values. If I place muzzle outside the plane - very strange stuff happens. But the flash is better when it starts just at the nose.

 

Oh. And the great thing is - recoil is gone cause the gun is right at the centre.

Edited December 25, 2006 by Gr.Viper

[Gr.Viper 131]

Gotha. Single Hit.

 

Now the really crappy thing happens to the AI. They not only miss with 37mm - they even fire shorter bursts with MG. I suppose that they press the trigger and then go reload(though you can fire and reload at the same time).

 

Also, is there a way to automatically enable wing leveler when one reloads the cannon and let the WL go only after reload is complete?

[+Tailspin 3]

Good job on the muzzle blast. I forgot to say the coordinates I used were for the MG muzzles and the values are in meters so you may be able to finetune more by adding another decimal place. Do you have the guns on separate triggers. You should be able to make the 37mm a secondary gun and that should make the other Vickers gun operate normally.

 

This is from a post of IndioBlack's where TK tells him how to set up the SE5a's guns on different trigger buttons. Should work the same way for the Spad XII.

 

IndioBlack,

 

The guns on real SE5a, I think, are on separate switch/trigger. Look down on the stick in cockipt, and you'll see two switches - i believe they are for each of the gun.

 

In game, you can cycle through different gun selection by hitting ";", that'll cycle through different combination (Vickers, Lewis, then Vickers+Lewis). Shift+";" cycles backward.

 

We believe most people would want to fire both at the same time (two guns are better than one! Smile ) but if you want, you can change the lewis gun to be mapped to secondary gun...

 

There is additional Fire Secondary Gun key command (unassigned by default), so you need to go to Options/Control/Customize screen to assign a key/joystick button for it. Then, edit the SE5a_data.ini file and change the input assignmen on one of the guns, so

 

InputName=FIRE_PRIMARY_GUN

 

reads

 

InputName=FIRE_SECONDARY_GUN

 

TK

[Gr.Viper 131]

The question is - will that help AI to stop breaking the attack just cause their cannon needs reload?

[+Tailspin 3]

Don't know. I was thinking more in terms of how I would like the guns set up.

[Gr.Viper 131]

Yep, thanks. Funny but I rarely switch weapons in FE. Maybe because they're all MG and you need to concentrate as much fire as you can in order to take an enemy down.

[Guest IndioBlack]

Yep, thanks. Funny but I rarely switch weapons in FE. Maybe because they're all MG and you need to concentrate as much fire as you can in order to take an enemy down.

 

The advantage of separate triggers is that you would use the lighter gun to range your target, and once you see you're getting hits, you'd then squeeze the trigger on your heavier gun to rip them apart. Works really well with machine gun and cannon equipped Russian aircraft in IL2.

[+Tailspin 3]

Another point to ponder re: the SPAD XII, since these aircraft were very rare historically and flown only by a few pilots, you could choose the SPAD XII for yourself in the loadout screen and leave the rest of the squadron flying other planes. Solves the AI problem.

[Gr.Viper 131]

The trick with primary/secondary cannon worked perfectly. I can now think which gun to use AND the AI seems to be fine using the primary MG without even bothering about the secondary large caliber. Does it happen the same way if you make separate triggers for SE5a?

[Guest IndioBlack]

The trick with primary/secondary cannon worked perfectly. I can now think which gun to use AND the AI seems to be fine using the primary MG without even bothering about the secondary large caliber. Does it happen the same way if you make separate triggers for SE5a?

 

If your question is: do the Se5a AI pilots fire one gun or both? Then I have to say I don't know. It never occurred to me what they do. Before or after the mod, they never seemed to fire many shots anyway, as evidenced by the post-mission stats.

 

I've used your mod, made two Spads as instructed, and everything works fine. I configured the Spad XII with two triggers, and it does work a treat. That 37mm really has some punch. Very nice idea. Thank you.

[Gr.Viper 131]

Ok. I've got it placed in Downloads

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autom...p;showfile=3777

 

The new version also has updated empty weights of the planes and reduced MG ammo for 12.

Didn't notice much difference after weight adjustment...

[+TexMurphy 0]

Does the AI use the cannon at all??

 

I mean the problem with FE isnt players having too little gun power but AI not beeing able to kill stuff...

 

If the cannon on the 12 is only a player option and not a AI option then we do just increase the problem..

 

Tex