A bunch of Flight Models

[+peter01 2]

Firecage, thanks for pointing it out.

 

Its probably true re patches, especially wings, but all parts, maybe just got a bit worse - wasn't always perfect as Tailspin stated.

 

And I did minimal damage/collision modelling, as I said initially in posts. Good time to revisit.

 

The nose thing is reasonably easily improved (testing already for EIII :smile). I'll look at other parts too, bit harder w/o 3d, have to ....guess, test, tweak etc etc.

 

Cheers

Edited March 29, 2007 by peter01

[+HerGr 9]

THX peter01 for this Fm´s

Do you planed FM file for Fok EI or EII for Bortadafarm EIII model?

E I is smaller than /EIII but ....

THx HerGr

[+peter01 2]

Cheers HerGr, its an interesting thought, hadn't thought of it. Not many 1915 planes yet, so no, but the way things are going who knows......1915 is a good year - damn, they all are in that period!!!!

[Gr.Viper 131]

No wonder, they called it 'Fokker Scourge'

[+peter01 2]

Borts redone his Eindeckers, and they are amazing . So with that I have updated the Eindecker FMs (and you need to d/l the current version at Borts site for these). Haven't yet done collision damaging, so posting here first so they can be used now and they fit with Latons new models. For feedback too .... please.

 

Its a big change. i'm using stalls to simulate the difficulties in wing warping - see below for why, but started this with Moranes and decided to now go further. Only effects Hard FM of course, they are different in Normal of course given stalls are used so extensively, still work fine tho. And most of the early war stuff is okay in Hard FM, at least.

 

Briefly the eindeckers are a less capable than previous version, but AI is much much better actually excellent, esp EIII (took some work). For player EIII is difficult but good, the EIV is a powerful but dangerous beast.

 

In the spirit of trialling things, I've attached a new Morane H to try - same plane, different stalls - you'll spend most of your time trying to fly it and get it to do what you want in a dogfight - seems good way to mimic the difficulties of early craft, I like it a lot. Bonus is as its the same plane, the AI is still very good (the AI are not effected by stalls), at least for the least capable fighter plane in the sim so far , the Ls only slightly better - had to say that .

 

I'd like feedback - if there is interest in this approach I might redo Laton's planes maybe an alternative version (but only changing stalls so don't ask)., and apply to some of the other ones I did of Borts.

 

Try the H against the EIII - you might win, but you'll agree it was a difficuly fight!

 

FokkerEIV_DATA.txtFokkerEIII_DATA.txtMSTypeH_DATA.txt

 

Some thoughts about FMing, think I've earned the right to say these things, but feel free to skip of course:

 

The AI won't work will just give up unless compared to other planes it has some climb, turn, or roll capability - if it has all three its an easier plane to do . And as the AI flies basically the same plane as the player, its a fine balancing act between underdoing the AI and overdoing the player plane especially the earlier ones - it takes some effort, for me at least 90% of the model. So, as the AI doesn't use climb well (and if good too easy for player), tight turns seem unrealistic to me, I give them some roll perhaps more than they should, but happily the AI uses roll very well. Now just about all the FMs have good rolls (even later ones are generally too good IMO even TKs), I'm just fitting in, if they were less I could reduce mine etc. And the reason I did Borts initially was to get some consistency with other planes, I'm not about developing a different independent set.

 

As the AI flies the same plane, the player will always win (stating the very obvious), doesn't mean that the AIs plane is less capable, its how the game is set up and TW want it I presume. And most games have seperate FMs for players and AI without a doubt. In FE I like a particular relatively early plane and there isn't any other plane in the sim that can beat me in that as AI, and this is probably true of my earlier version of the EIII/IV too. BUT, there is a major but, the FMs can be done and AI parameters tuned to make them more effective without making that plane too good for the player (eg, super climb). So if you see a great AI it either that its overdone for the player or maybe just done really well!! It takes a lot of effort to get the balancing act right, I'm learning this as I go, I'm sure others are or have. And TK will continue to improve the game. Things will get even better, just takes time.

 

In modelling flight characteristics, we've been very lucky there are some beauts out there - for me I love the feel of the Nieups and the Spad and Dolphin, some 2 seaters. But again, do they include the difficulties in flying these planes? I tried to make interesting planes in my first release of Borts - side forces, slipping several hundred feet when turning, many other things - it was a salutory experience, the AI didn't work and crashed all over the place!!!!

 

The fact is the AI cannot handle planes that don't fly properly (as on rails), so modelling difficulties is not easy and remember this is based on a modern jet game. So wing warping for early planes, tendencies to pull or turn tightly (not torque - AI does not use torque) to one side like camel, and various other lovable quirks are difficult or impossible. AFAIK stalls is the real characteristic that can be used to model difficulties (tho Tex used locking ailerons to simulate diving difficulties and I'm going to give that a try). You can develop very realistic handling planes with all the quirks you want and you'd enjoy flying it of course, but no dogfights no AI - and really the AI is a lot more than half of this game and the work in FMs.

 

Which brings me to the initial point re Eindeckers and Morane H - using stalls for wing warping.

 

Sorry for long rant - been meaning to get this out since starting FMs on Borts planes.

Edited April 18, 2007 by peter01

[+Tailspin 3]

From TK:

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4319

[Bandy 3]

Peter,

 

I think its great to get an insight into how you're approaching the FM's; it helps to understand why things happen when kooky things happen.

Keep up the excellent work, you must have the patience of Jobe...

[+Tailspin 3]

IMHO you're doing a fine job Peter. The only problem I'm having is keeping up with the changes and keeping the ones I like separted from the ones I don't.

[+peter01 2]

Thanks Tailspin and Bandy, not just for encouragement, but also for just being involved...more on that, actually the point of this post - another long one, sorry.

 

BTW would still like feedback on the stall thing...its actually using stalls as wings vibrations and difficulties rather than stallling as such, didn't explain that clearly I guess.

 

"The only problem I'm having is keeping up with the changes and keeping the ones I like separted from the ones I don't."

 

Sorry tailspin, yep, and there is much else happening as well, new planes, other things. I'm going to redo from scratch the the ones I did of Borts or others eg, new Albs, now I feel adept in doing FMs. But also a bit FM'd out and going on holidays so it will take some time. i'll post one at a time, no more. And I do appreciate the patience that people have shown with my attempts.

 

The reason for this post however is to throw some ideas around on modding and community involvement.

 

My aim in terms of making planes reasonably consistent with ones available is why I did this in the first place and still feel its the right goal, there was/is very little really And thats how I will continue to do new FMs as well. But its a two edged sword too - eg, roll is overdone in just about all planes so I tend to put more roll than some would like. As I said its needed to make AI competitive (even to make it put up a fight!!!).

 

As its not posible or feasible for various reasons for one person to mod all FMs for consistency I think its up to the individuals to do this, with some pointers and hopefully general discussion here on the forums on how to do it (don't necessarily need to point out or criticise particular planes). That is, maybe the community has to help themselves. It could be that there will be a set of FMs done by someone sometime (as in other TK games), but its probably going to be limited, and unlike other TW games these WWI FMs are actually easier to mod by novices. So I reckon its up to ourselves, everybody, to make the game work for themselves individually, as they would like it. It means those that have a real interest say in performance of early planes, then actually do some maybe simple mods to make them realistic, and then to ensure a level playing field, make similar changes to other planes as they see fit. Make their own consistency and how they feel they should should perform.

 

Many people are trying modding all sorts of things - so it may not be too much to suggest that some do it on their FMs if interested. The aim would be to keep it reasonably simple.

 

So how to get this stuff going???....well I'd like to suggest something that changes the roll on planes that people can do easily enough, and thats the involvement, plus perhaps feedback and commenting on it. As i said the roll on all planes is overdone, my opinion only of course, and in terms of capability and feel of planes its one of the three (climb - very difficult to reduce without consequences, but easily increased, turn maybe easy as well) - so one sorted out, maybe??

 

This example is for Morane H, but, a couple of points tho.

 

If you make these changes, the AI is effected relatively to others in the sim - they are disadvantaged but not made worse in themselves - its a safe change in itself. And you can make these changes to all the planes, bonus is you can easily make some better or worse to suit your taste!!! I know it is some work, so many planes, but no one else is likely to do it for you, at least not soon. Another benefit is this change makes some planes that are unflyable in hard FM, flyable (may be other issues though in these eg takeoff etc)

 

Other advantages are its very simple to do (if you have notepad, can locate the right data.ini, change two lines - 4, if 4 ailerons), and it doesn't change the "feel" of the plane really - may actually improve it as the planes feel less modern, less responsive. On the other hand if you reduce for example the Maxcontrolspeed= for Morane H by or the aileron roll capability Cldc= even by 10%, you will get a very "unfun" plane to fly, feels very very tight, and will also stuff up the AI - so you have to know what to do - why I'm pointing it out.

 

For morane, in data.ini, "Control Surfaces" section near bottom of file locate [LeftAileron] and change ControlRate=4.0 to ControlRate=1.0. Do same for [RightAileron]. Thats it. Feels more like an early plane in terms of performance, and nice too! You can do this for any plane, certainly all mine.

 

But, please contribute by posting what you think - helps others decide what to do and how to do it, encourages me and others to then point out other ideas - I have quite a few really, issues that are often quite easily resolved, eg, takeoff and planes that don't work that well in hard etc, but only really going to go into this if there is interest and involvement.

 

Cheers

Edited April 19, 2007 by peter01

[+Tailspin 3]

Funny you should mention roll rates and doing your own FMs, Peter. That is what I have been doing all along to certain A/C that I didn't think were up to par. At first it was rudder response on the original Thirdwire models. Then I moved on to increased roll on some on planes I thought were undermodeled as far as general maneuverability is concerned. I do it by increasing Cldc or coefficient of lift due to deflection of the control surface of the ailerons and or lowering CDdc. Those were the N11 and N17 in particular. Like you say, not knocking Tex's flight modeling, just tweaking performance to my own personal interpretation of the available data and accounts. Learning how to tweak a FM has its advantages. Take the Fokker EI, or the lack of an EI I should say. I've had an EI since you redid Bort's EIII FM and I got it by copying the EIII, changing the file names and .inis and simply lowering the horsepower rating, empty weight, and changing the max speed SL to match the EI data. The model is close enough (half meter wing span difference, etc.) and the reduced power and speed seemed to do the job.

 

As for balancing the models against each other, I admit I wasn't too crazy about the idea at first. After all they weren't very balanced against each other in reality...especially early on. The Eindeckers were clearly superior at their introduction. The N 11 and DH 2's were clearly superior to the Eindeckers. The Albatross D I and II were clearly superior to the N 11 and DH 2. The Pup and Tripe chased the DI and DII from the skys and so on. It was well into 1917 before it seemed that parity on both sides was finally reached and maintained for more than a few months. However, IMO, you are right were it comes to gameplay and having good dogfights (ie, FUN) between player and AI. Its a good idea whether its "realistic" or not. I think its clear your ideas are still grounded in a historical perspective of the particular aircraft you are working on. Your efforts are working. When I say I enjoy your work I don't think I am alone.

[+peter01 2]

Thanks for encouragement Tailspin.

 

I well remember the Albatros and your changes. Used them, liked them and flew only that for a month until all the others planes started coming out. Forget to say thankyou - was one of the quiet watchers at that time.

 

It started me on moding FMs, so ....not sure really whether to thank you or.....

 

Bringing up those changes you suggested people make at that time, encouraging them, has given me an idea, about my own FMs....more on that shortly.

 

But gee, it is very quiet now, here and all the other FE forums as well. Hard to stir up any interest.

Edited April 21, 2007 by peter01

[+Tailspin 3]

Thanks for the kind words, Peter. When this sim was introduced I wanted to be sure to let people know about its modability and since its so easy to restore the sim to its "original" state that anyone could mess around with the files without fear of "breaking" something. It also helped to keep down the detractors as the phrase "If you don't like it, fix it yourself." really did apply in a lot of cases. Still, a lot of people think that FE is all about modding and not about the game itself. I just don't get that.

 

It has been very quiet on the forums lately. Don't know if people are losing interest or just busy flying all the new planes and terrains. TK is hinting that the new release is nearing completion so things are likely to pick up in a few weeks and there are still some good planes in the works from the usual suspects.

[+sinbad 27]

I'm not losing interest, RL has prevented me from flying at all for over a week, all I have time for is to look in on the forums, and DL the latest A/C and FMs.

 

As Peter knows, I am very much interested in this work, it is what makes this sim worthwhile. The work you guys are doing is very important. If I can get some time to fly in the next few days, I may have something intelligent to say about the specifics.

 

Cheers and Salute!

 

sinbad