peter01...regarding EWS for Laton's planes

[+Tailspin 3]

Hi peter. I have discovered a problem with the MS L. She doesn't fly right on Auto Pilot. Throttles to 100% tries to climb, reaches about 65mph or so and shuts throttle down to 0, loses speed. Dives to compensate, throttles up to 100% again climbs...repeat. Never climbs above 350 feet or so because it alway shuts the throttle down completely. Also ALT-N results in plane exiting at WAY below stall speed and there is no enemy in sight. Haven't noticed this problem with others yet, but only have flown a couple.

 

While I'm commenting some general thoughts on the new FMs. Overall good stuff, with one glaring exception. That is I'm dissapointed in the general lack of rudder authority across the board so far. Its almost non-existant in the Avro 504 and while other models may have a stronger initial impulse, it usually only results in slewing the plane a few degrees then it stops abruptly. Personally I like less roll authority and more rudder. I know you've explained what the difference is and why your FMs are done that way so I'm in a quandry. Oh well, I have to go now, my Grandson is coming for a visit. I'll have more thoughts later.

[+peter01 2]

Thanks for letting me know re MSL, and comments generally Tailspin. Need this sort of feedback.

 

Hmmm...autopilot problem....never experienced it, but before uploading I have to delete large sections of the file I use for testing, and I then refly them - its why even uploading takes days!! Though I test quickly after this, could well be on MSL I didn'y spot a problem. But could be something else...

 

Will have a look, have to be tomrrow tho.

 

Re rudder, know what you mean, but briefly all the planes except Moranes, early Pfalzes and Avro have not only good rudder, but effective rudder (not much push back, and certainly controlled in the sense that once you stop applying rudder it doesn't continue slewing, if you like - this seems right to me?). I did though improve them for these to what they had been originally (so you may notice it more IF your playing Normal - its a bit different in Hard). I may revisit the logic that led me to the very early decision about their reduced rudder capability. - its good feedback, type I want.

 

But "general lack of rudder authority " isn't so general I think - fly the Martinsyde Halbs Albs FokkerDs, even Fokker/Pfalz Bs. Actually it could be far too good and effective. The upcoming Ateams all have VERY good and effective rudder too.

 

On Avro - its the only one I'm not that happy about - tho I like the feel and it is very very close, except for its climb, and in frustration I halved its rudder - so it was not too good for player!! But, you can simply give this good and effective rudder by doubling the cndc number if you like (there won't be push back in this case at least), but as I want to have another shot at this plane, I won't be changing what I have made available at this stage for this one.

Edited July 28, 2007 by peter01

[+Tailspin 3]

OK. I'll try more types. My comments are based soley on the Parasols, the MS H, and the Avros so probably "general lack of rudder authority" was too general of a statement. I guess I'll have to force myself to fly the "other guys" a little. I can also understand where you don't want to get too overdone with the parasols and the other "wing-warpers" as these types, by all accounts, weren't easy to fly.

[+peter01 2]

Found problem with MSL, and yes it was due to final file cleanup, obviously didn't check this as well as I should have - it crashed my game - so thanks Tailspin. I think this is probably the reason, as AI auto seems fine for me, but a little perplexed why it didn't crash your game as well though, so let me know if it fixes it.

 

I will check the others too but can't at the moment. Tonight or tomorrow, and will then change download.

 

The problem is:

 

"FlightControl]" should be "[FlightControl]" with bracket in front. You can change this if you want or just download this file.

 

MSTypeL_DATA.zip

 

Re rudder, like to get more of your view of this when you try out other planes. Re-reading your initial comments it seems to me you may be saying several things for different planes: lack of rudder, push back on rudder after rudder is no longer applied, too effective (not enough pushback or not enough continuation of slewing when rudder is no longer applied), even lack of induced roll as a result of applying???

 

I do think most of the planes are different - same have induced roll, some spring back more than others, but I am definitely interested in what you think about this. Much of it is really just refinement - problem is I always feel I need to do extensive testing, which takes time.

 

Thanks again for comments.

 

Cheers

 

 

PS: the reason that most actually do have good ruddder now is because you pointed this out in earlier threads, I probably wouldn't have done it necessarily (for reasons explained before), and as the planes are far better to fly now as a result, your insistence :) resulted in far better and more realistic plane FMs. So keep the comments coming.....

Edited July 28, 2007 by peter01

[+Tailspin 3]

Glad the MS L problem was just a typo. I did get a CTD once when ending a mission but not every time so I didn't think it was related. I've just flown the Alb DI and DII, Halb DII and Fokker BI. Based on my opinion on how the rudder should work...for the most part on most of these A/C....the Fokker BI is just about right. The Halb is about the minimum I would expect and the Albs are still a little weak. IMHO I haven't come across any planes where the roll rate or elevator response was excessive. I like these FMs. They are very "flyable". I actually prefer the inclusion of stalls in the HARD model. I just like to be able to use the rudder to kick the nose around...especially with the slower roll rates of the earlier models. Is this realistic? I don't know. I'd like to hear what other people think.

 

Oh...I'll fix the MS L data.ini and let you know if that took care of it. Thanks!

[+Tailspin 3]

Yes, that was the problem peter. Everything is working fine now. I think that was affecting the FM too as the plane seems to fly better now.

[+peter01 2]

just dropped the wife off shopping...so a bit more time

 

thanks for comments.

 

glad you feel pitch and roll for planes you tried is about right

 

Re rudder on Halbs and Albs, you are right.

 

should explain a bit more before going into detail, hopefully it will encourage others to comment as well, as many things are really a matter of refinement now for these planes, consistency in performance between planes, and player and AI balance for the same plane

 

the latter is important, ie, ai flies the plane at least as well as the player, otherwise, its impossible IMO to get consistency of performance across all planes for both player and ai, if that makes sense. you know if a player plane is better than the same plane flown by ai, then that should be consistent for all player planes and ai planes

 

what happened is this. the fms were pretty well done a month ago, then I discoverd incrementally how much difference the ai parameters can make. i was happy - finally good ai. but it meant that on first find i had to make the player planes better (compared to the same ai planes) as the ai improved. as I found new ways of improving ai it became an endless circle if you llike - imagine, revisting 40 or so fms every week for a month and rebalancing! rebalancing has consequences for the feel (is very important, all FM'ers in this game or any other want to make a plane that a player wants to fly, realism is different and preferably optional and the way they do it in IL2) and of course very easily ai issues - so you have to be very careful...and i got a little worn out by it

 

 

long and short of it is this:

 

rudder now can be better for player because the ai is better. i did do this, but after 3rd or 4th revision i missed some obvious ones that could be even better (tho they are pretty good) - both gamewise and realistically. Albs and Halbs. So feedback here is very welcome...even subtle type variations

 

roll remains an issue. if you look at some files you will see i have been quite creative trying to reduce roll a lot for ai for some planes and player as well as trying to retain a good feel, and just as importantly retained feel (the early ones originally lost some feel in a dogfight cos they were done like all the others basically but didn't feel right for wing warpers). basic problem in roll is that its a major factor in the players enjoyment of the game - believe me I have tried many many things but still can't get it as right as I'd like for some (some I have), eg, had an FM which worked well, felt good, but after flying around 15 mins in a dogfight got a sore arm!! the roll issue is twofold: initial slow roll is an absolute player enyoyment killer, and slow roll at say 45 degrees or more..well sore arm or frustration

 

you maybe right about stalls - but they are all there in the FMs, just around 30mph as all rest for many 1916 planes (higher for earlier). reason: ai is too good for player if player has high stalls - they were higher until I discovered how good the ai can be. however this feedabck is good - I'd like to go at least 40mph for stalls (it makes a big difference). But two questions on this: everyone has been playing Normal I think(?), are they ready for high stalls - since I have gone to a lot of trouble balancing planes for hard FM, I would like people to fly that way. Second is, have you tried the planes as ai? you may find you are glad your plane doesn't stall at higher speeds!!! obviously if everyone promised :yes: that they would fly hard what i would do is tone down the ai, and increase player stalls - the balancing thing, you know

 

 

to be honest thats where i am heading eventually, possibly as an alternative pack as its just changing stalls and AI parameters, not too difficult - but I don't want to put people off starting Hard by making it too difficult with stalls. Its a pity in a way that the game doesn't have hard, with option of stalls or without - that would be perfect to me and maybe even eliminate the need for a Normal Mode, or at least, do away with Easy, then Normal could be called Easy (which in essence IMHO it is).

 

 

so i am very interested in comments...and what about the ai?

Edited July 28, 2007 by peter01

[+peter01 2]

sorry to say that the same problem existed in several files ... have fixed, so re-uploading now. apologies

[+Tailspin 3]

First let me say that my initial impressions about rudder response were a little off base for the most part. Flying more planes I can see where you have indeed payed attention to the rudder.

 

About HARD vs. NORMAL...When the game was first released I always flew on HARD. Then when all the new 3rd party models were introduced, most of them definately NOT tuned for HARD FM you were faced with either switching back and forth depending on which plane you chose to fly or just keeping it on NORMAL. I chose the latter and didn't worry about it. Flying on NORMAL doesn't take that much away from a good game experience IMHO. Now that we are getting more models to fly on HARD, I find myself switching back and forth. If all the planes were tuned for HARD, I'd fly it that way all the time. But that isn't the case yet.

 

What about the AI? Well, they can still whip a plane around a lot quicker than I can. But that is usually balanced out by them doing something stupid like flying straight and level just long enough to get a good shot in. I think they're pretty good. You're just as likely to get into a very difficult scissors fight with an AI pilot that won't give in as you are to jump an unsuspecting greenhorn daydreaming his life away. I'll tell you what...get yourself into one of those 32 plane furballs over an airfield with the AAA bursting all around and the planes swirling everywhere...its tough to come out in one piece. If that isn't fun, you aren't trying.

[+Tailspin 3]

sorry to say that the same problem existed in several files ... have fixed, so re-uploading now. apologies

 

I've looked through most of them and have only seen it in the MS L? Oh well, gotta get some sleep. Hopefully you'll get some feedback from others.

[+peter01 2]

What about the AI? Well, they can still whip a plane around a lot quicker than I can. But that is usually balanced out by them doing something stupid like flying straight and level just long enough to get a good shot in.

 

Ahhh...can't be....not with my AI, not in hard FM, not in a 1:1 (in missions I suspect its different, too many greens/novices).

 

Its a fact.

 

i'll get the Dh2 ready for upload in next 30 mins, so you can try if you or others like.

 

Actually the Dh2 is the best to "showcase" consistency if you like. I think you will find early Pfalzes (relatively) easy, Eindeckkkers can be challenging but you should win, Fokker ds harder a bit (certainy different AI), against Halbs very little chance, Albs its hopeless. AI is different for all these. Is good i think.

 

Cheers

[+Tailspin 3]

No, not one on one. I seldom fly anything but Single Missions or Campaigns. During missions I do try to latch on to one guy and get him...unless circumstances prevent that from happening.

[Edward 11]

Peter01

 

I've been trying your Flight Models out one by one and I like them very much. I'm using Hard Mode, and they really seem nice. Really good work. Thanks for doing them; I'm going to use Hard Mode from now on thanks to you

 

Edward

[ShrikeHawk 384]

Hey Peter,

 

Nice Work! This is what I thought flying in Hard mode would be like from the beginning.

The aircraft are behaving in a much more realistic manner compared to the last time

I tried hard mode. Very pleased with your results.

 

I noticed that the Albatross DIIL and the Halberstadt DIII have a bit of roll to the left

in level flight. That might be ascribed to torque effects. The other a/c simply push the nose

to the left which I would expect. But the roll is most pronounced in those two FMs. Perhaps

that was intentional. I'm not sure.

 

The Sopwith Triplane flies tail-heavy and needs constant forward stick to fly level. Otherwise,

I'm loving the flight model. It seems to turn even faster now.

 

I've fought against the AI of your FMs too. Great improvement! They are more aggressive

and much more active. They respond quickly to being fired upon. Also, the Halberstadts don't

climb like they have rockets attached any longer, which I'm relieved to see.

 

Overall, I'm incredibly happy with the new FMs. The dogfights are much faster now and feel like

I'm in a very deadly knifefight rather than the slow and sleepy dance of before. The furballs are

very intense and quick. Loving this! Keep it up!

 

ShrikeHawk

[+peter01 2]

Glad you tried them all out, and posted your views, too.

 

You have a good feel for the planes, Shrikehawk, you've done FMs before...I see good things ahead..........

 

I'm really pleased you posted Edward. I started doing FMs because I was getting so many things from the community, that made such a difference to my enjoyment of the game and felt grateful, that I wanted to contribute as well. Tk's stock terrain was .... well, I was just about ready to delete FE from the PC in January, and along you came...without a doubt, a must have, and the best mod.

 

Your post does help me feel the effort was worthwhile. Thanks.