The Fog of War

[+Dave 2,322]

I just talked to Fates on the phone not to long ago and he brought up a good point. He is not a history buff, and he said he didn't know dick about RM. So look at his from Fates perspective. He isn't talking about the man he is talking about the lessons RM learned. Replace RM with any Sec Def saying the samething. So is it the man or the message?

[eraser_tr 29]

Well said.

 

Just one tiny point about the media. On a personal note, I know all too badly how wrong they get things. I recently became aware of episodes of Dr. Phil and Law & order that were absolutely insulting to people with a condition I have in how wrongly it was portrayed. They're not invested in any one side, or in delivering news anymore. They're a business and they're invested in making a profit, and their business is simple entertainment.

 

Back to the points then.

 

1. Empathize with your enemy. You can't empathize with someone you're fighting, otherwise you won't be able to fight them. The gist I get from that, understand your enemy would fit better. And no, not understand as in offer therapy and be friends. Understand as in knowing how they think, their motivations to better predict what they'll do, and how they'll react to what you do.

 

4. maximize efficiency. Thats the number cruncher coming out in him. Efficiency isn't everything, too much can actually become harmful. Now I'm going by business and general life, but you should never sacrifice effectiveness ( or quality) for the sake of efficiency. It's better to be effective and inefficient than efficient and ineffective. Because then in the long run, you'll be both inefficient and ineffective.

Edited August 14, 2007 by eraser_tr

[+Fates 63]

Well said.

 

Back to the points then.

 

1. Empathize with your enemy. You can't empathize with someone you're fighting, otherwise you won't be able to fight them. The gist I get from that, understand your enemy would fit better. And no, not understand as in offer therapy and be friends. Understand as in knowing how they think, their motivations to better predict what they'll do, and how they'll react to what you do.

 

In the film, you must be able to see thru your enemies minds and thoughts. If you know when they are struggling and when they are strong, you can adjust your war around theirs.

 

4. maximize efficiency. Thats the number cruncher coming out in him. Efficiency isn't everything, too much can actually become harmful. Now I'm going by business and general life, but you should never sacrifice effectiveness ( or quality) for the sake of efficiency. It's better to be effective and inefficient than efficient and ineffective. Because then in the long run, you'll be both inefficient and ineffective.

 

Efficiency is a term that is predicated on the goal. If the goal is properly defined, then efficiency should be maximized. Efficiency can be futile if the goal is not properly defined. Like General Schwartzkopf stated: “Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion.”

[+Typhoid 231]

What happened to instill this hatred in you Typhoid?

 

friends killed for nothing but $$$ in a ledger or for cheap, short-term political talking points (propaganda). And a son in Fallujah now and another headed back over there in the next few months.

 

sorry if I get a little heated, but that is the bottom line. It has been my life, the lives of friends and shipmates and now sons who have been and are being betrayed, again. And I left shipmates behind lost in watery graves.

 

your comments on points 1 and 4 are on target. I would phrase the efficiency vs effectiveness a little differently based on my past combat air operations and target planning perspective - efficiency is doing something at least cost. Effectiveness is getting the job done the best way with cost as a secondary consideration. Overwhelming force is a most effective method, just enough is a most efficient method. As an example - Desert Storm was most effective, OIF was most effecient.

 

"No, as much as Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh would like you to believe, Harry Reid and Howard Dean don't send out a bulletin to anyone left or reasonably center with beliefs and arguements that can be tossed away when the next one comes in." actually, they do get their talking points every day faxed to them from the moveon.org and similar crowd. the NYT's reported that not to long ago. Which is why the same talking point is repeated simultaneously by various DNC types and their media hacks in the mainstream Propaganda Press. THat is not Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh saying it, it was the NYT themselves that admitted it. For once, I choose to believe them.........

 

one correction. I said we captured weapons grade uranium. We captured enriched uranium which was not yet weapons grade. We left 500 tons of uranium that was not enriched (purchased from Africa) at the Tuwaitha Nuclear Research Facility.

[eraser_tr 29]

I'm sorry you've lost friends, and wish your sons the best.

 

Nobody is out to betray them. I've never, nor have seen anyone who isn't just an insensitive ***k actually be against the people who are in harms way. Politics mean nothing when you're in a fight, survival is more important than whatever motives there may be for any of it. It's the policy makers taking the heat. How is it betraying them to want them home? How is it treasonous and terrible to not want people I graduated with, friends I grew up with to get hurt?

 

But don't hate an entire spectrum of ideology because of individuals, because there are people trying to make a profit on oth sides.

 

Who's "they"? people like that bald guy or that ugly woman who go on TV as analysts? For them, that makes some sense, if they both had appearances on different networks, it'd be moronic and counterproductive to say two completely different or even contradictory things if they're supposed to be representing the same organization. Hell, that was a huge criticism of democrats before that they were too divided and didn't have a single message, isn't that a bit of a double standard? Everyone has propaganda, it's just who actually listens to it.

Edited August 15, 2007 by eraser_tr

[+Dave 2,322]

Eraser

 

They may not be out to wish them harm , but they consider them expendable. A number, an asset, that can be replaced. Have you been in the military? This is not a shot against you but your response will help me drive a general point. Again I am not sniping at you.

[eraser_tr 29]

I'd have loved to be able to fly in the airforce or navy, but could never join because of health complications. So no, I can't speak from personal experience.

 

Who are you saying considers people expendable? The congressmen on the left, or DOD and high level military personel?

[+Typhoid 231]

I'd have loved to be able to fly in the airforce or navy, but could never join because of health complications. So no, I can't speak from personal experience.

 

Who are you saying considers people expendable? The congressmen on the left, or DOD and high level military personel?

 

when a nation sends its military to war, it has to back them up. Putting them in, taking the casualties necessary to achieve the objectives, and then bailing out and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is a betrayal of their service and sacrifice.

 

any politician who does that is treating the troops killed and injured as purely expendable.

 

when a war is on and forces engaged - it gets a little vague to use the term expendable in the context of the forces and leadership. We (DOD and high level military personel) do not send forces into harms way lightly, but do so with the intention to achieve some objective. In so doing we know that we will take casualties. We measure the goal vs the expected level of casualties and the commander makes the call. That does not mean we consider them expendable, but recognize that war is war and is ultimately a brutal, chaotic process. A Russian general one time described his decision in WWII when he faced an objective with a mine field in the way and no mine clearing means or time. He lined up the regiments in line and marched them through. His lead regiment took some pretty heavy casualties but cleared the way for the next two who took the objective on time. His point was that he took fewer casualties that way overall because he won the battle. Hard decision.

 

my beef with McNamara, to briefly put this back on its original subject, is that he considered the war unwinnable, pursued pointless strategies and put forces into combat believing they could not win for purely political purposes. They were expendable for his purposes which were not to actually win the war he and LBJ committed them to.

 

Once engaged in war, a nation has to win it. Against the current enemies who's objective is our destruction, we have to win. Defeat, surrender or negotiated withdrawal are not viable options. To withdraw is to betray the forces committed and betray those who paid the ultimate sacrifice. Our Democratic Party leadership today, as in Vietnam, has chosen that course as did McNamara.

[+Dave 2,322]

Well that covers just about what I was going to say. LOL So disregard my point i was going to maker eraser. However I will keep my feelings about the current goings on to myself.

[IguanaKing 0]

Well that covers just about what I was going to say. LOL So disregard my point i was going to maker eraser. However I will keep my feelings about the current goings on to myself.

 

I concur, wholeheartedly, with my veteran brothers. Once the first shots are fired, it has to be for all the marbles. If we can't commit to that, then we dishonor those who died. The right and wrong involved in how we got there is irrelevant. What matters now is finishing the job so that the fallen will not have died in vain. I'd like the prosecution of this war to be handled differently than it is now, but then again, I'm not much different than any other Monday-morning quarterback with military experience. Its a dynamic situation, and its going to take cast iron balls on the part of the US to see it through. I sincerely hope that we, as a country, have the intestinal fortitude this time around to gut this out and win.