Getting started ........

[+peter01 2]

USAFMTL posted this a while back .... its a sticky now, thought my comments would be more appropiate in a new thread.

 

Fellas in an effort to the help the new guys what mods are a must? What should you download after patching? I am going to make this is a sticky and I need your help. Thanks.

 

The only mod that would help new guys is a "Supermod(s)". One that packages up everything (or say just for a period like 1918 or 1916 etc), that can be downloaded and installed in one go.

 

If you really think about it, why would anybody new go to the trouble of downloading all these things. And they don't - its why initial perceptions of the game (few planes, sparse, iffy terrain, weak ai, questionable fms) still remain. Who is going to come back and retry it all going to all the trouble of d/l'ing 50-100 files, many large?

 

Its a pity - there are so many planes now, lots of improvements, yet we don't attract many new players IMO.

 

They try the stock game, are maybe a little disillusioned, read what people have said in other forums, and then just play OFF for their WW1 fix.

 

I like OFF too, especially the immersion aspects. But FE is better in many respects. To me its a toss up, and I am glad that we have two good WW1 aviation games - we didn't before, even OFF P1 wasn't that good.

 

But we don't attract as many newcomers, or even people that may want to retry the game now, because its all a bit overwhelming.

 

Its a pity.

Edited September 15, 2007 by peter01

[J18Dread 0]

 

For all its problems, especially mulit-play, the beauty of FE is its customization. The modders who have adopted this game have given it a dimension(s) far beyond what I am used to from RB3D. I enjoy making the game mine, but I fully understand where others might not. I agree that we need to incorporate many of the improvements that have been made to the planes and terrains, but how do you propose that the super mod be developed? Who gets to decide?Do you set it up for Normal or Hard? Which planes? Do they want to fly single play or multi?

 

But in the spirit of your suggestion, I would propose that the Camel and Dr1 be fully modified to fly in Hard mode and added to the standard line-up. That Vogesen with replacement tiles be the standard terrain. And finally, that all planes be 'hardened' to sustain more damage.

 

Firecage and Lothar have started working on a "Super-mod" for multi-play. Lothar is working on a map similar to the Island map in RB3D. And Firecage is working on the FMs and DMs of various planes- even we can't always agree on which planes to include. We think we have the mechanics down - Hamachi, Teamspeak, respawn times, altitudes, locations, etc., but need a major overhaul of Coop play before we can say that FE multiplay is fully functional.

[+Tailspin 3]

IMHO it may be too soon to be looking at an all-inclusive package. We're waiting on a new release and a major patch/upgrade. We've really just begun to get the FM's ironed out. Then there's damage models, terrain improvements, etc, etc. We've actually only just started tweaking this thing when you think about it. I think it will be awhile yet before a serious attempt at getting it all together won't be just a waste of time.

 

Besides, IMHO, its not that difficult to set up your own sim with the downloads you want. The main thing I do to avoid problems is NEVER use the auto-installers or unzip files directly to the main directory. ALWAYS point the installer or unzip the files to a TEMP folder and manually place the sub-folders/files where they belong. That way nothing gets overwritten that I don't know about or approve and you avoid the problem of nesting folders inside folders.

[+peter01 2]

IMHO it may be too soon to be looking at an all-inclusive package. We're waiting on a new release and a major patch/upgrade.

 

Actually, thats why I think this is a good time. The addon will generate new interest. Having a supermod or an "all inclusive package" ready immediately afterwards would be perfect.

 

At the very least the "all inclusive package" could have all the planes (or a subset, say 1918 to fit with TKs), perhaps a terrain or choice of terrains, some missions and campaigns (a few done BTW), and this would probably be enough to start IMO. After that people could customise it easily enough with skins, FMs, smoke effects, screens, etc etc as they please, tho this could be done to start with as well but it becomes quite subjective as J18Dread states.

 

The reason I started this thread is: yes, FE is highly customisable, many of us enjoy doing this, but we have been part of FE for quite some time. We downloaded things incrementally, have a good idea of what we like and don't, and change things if we can, and spent a lot of time doing this. I would not d/l a supermod myself - many of you would not either, I suspect.

 

But for a Newbie? Or for a person that tried it earlier and didn't like it, then perhaps deleted it?

 

You know, we have a lot of planes, its one of the strengths of the game - but who on earth is going to d/l 60-70 planes individually???? Not many. Maybe we make the mistake of thinking about this game from our own perspective rather than from a newcomers? I suspect that they would like ALL the planes. better terrains, missions, campaigns in one go,and then worry about improving it with FMs, skins, immersion aspects, damage moddelling, even multiplayer. And preferably for them, these changes then would be easy to download too, maybe in one go as well. But you have to start somewhere.

 

So this a suggestion to attract new players - and we do need them, rather badly IMO. FE is as good (probably better) as any WW1 aviation sim, at least now to me, and may get a lot better again with TKs addon, the problem is one of making it easy for others to fully enjoy initially or retry. Otherwise no matter how good, its appeal is limited - partly because a number of people were disappointed initially with some aspects, and that is the view given by them to others that inquire at some other forums.

Edited September 15, 2007 by peter01

[+peter01 2]

For all its problems, especially mulit-play, the beauty of FE is its customization. The modders who have adopted this game have given it a dimension(s) far beyond what I am used to from RB3D. I enjoy making the game mine, but I fully understand where others might not. I agree that we need to incorporate many of the improvements that have been made to the planes and terrains, but how do you propose that the super mod be developed? Who gets to decide?Do you set it up for Normal or Hard? Which planes? Do they want to fly single play or multi?

 

But in the spirit of your suggestion, I would propose that the Camel and Dr1 be fully modified to fly in Hard mode and added to the standard line-up. That Vogesen with replacement tiles be the standard terrain. And finally, that all planes be 'hardened' to sustain more damage.

 

Firecage and Lothar have started working on a "Super-mod" for multi-play. Lothar is working on a map similar to the Island map in RB3D. And Firecage is working on the FMs and DMs of various planes- even we can't always agree on which planes to include. We think we have the mechanics down - Hamachi, Teamspeak, respawn times, altitudes, locations, etc., but need a major overhaul of Coop play before we can say that FE multiplay is fully functional.

 

Good points.

 

I'd say we/the community would need to come to an agreement over what would be best to include. No one person could do it IMO, unless it was just the basics such as ALL the planes, a terrain, campaigns and missions. Most other things become a matter of personal taste. Best to have wider participation and agreement, I think.

 

They have been modified to fly in Hard.

 

I'd suggest that for multiplayer, a supermod should be developed - its a good example. It probably should be a seperate install too.

 

With planes sustaining more damage - its far better IMO to reduce mg effectiveness, rather than "hardening" each plane. A problem of course (not in MP) is that as you toughen up planes, it becomes harder for the AI too - best to change only a few things in the gundata file and tweak or retweak rather than all the FMs. I'd say that you get a far better result too, and can add some other changes then to some planes in the FM itself to enhance this.

Edited September 15, 2007 by peter01

[J18Dread 0]

Great idea about mg effectiveness. In RB3D there was a bullet mass factor setting. Do we have the same thing in FE? Does it apply to all the guns - Vickers, Lewis, and Spandaus? One change and we are done? Where do I find it? Thanks.

[+peter01 2]

just a couple of changes...

 

you need to change the gundata using the guneditor, changing field "Ammo Wt (g)"

 

this is what i have done

 

303CAL_VICKERS_MK2 -----> 8.3 (was initially I think 13.3)

 

303CAL_LEWIS_MK2 -----> 8.3 (was initially I think 13.3)

 

7.92MM_PARABELLUM_MG14 -----> 6 (was initially I think 10)

 

7.92MM_SPANDAU_LMG08/15 -----> 8 (was initially I think 12)

 

I experimented extensively before settling on these - slightly higher or slightly lower - too easy, too hard for me at least - but you may find other numbers more to your liking.

 

And really will only work with good AI, otherwise they will never shoot down anything.

 

Works well...

 

Firstly, with the much improved AI its hard to survive as a player with default mgs. With this change it usually takes the AI a number of shots to bring you down. But believe me, they definitely can easily do that!

 

From a player perspective, it can be hard to bring down a plane. You can use up a lot of ammo (200-300 is not uncommon to down one plane), but if you hit critical components it can be 10-50. It encourages good shooting.

 

You notice a big difference between 2 guns and one. Both player and AI. I have played several dogfights, Pups vs AlbatrosDvas, and though generally the Pup is a better plane, unless I as the player in the Pup shoot down a couple quickly to help the team, the Pups will lose quite badly. I think its because of the 2 guns. And if so, seems right to me.

Edited September 16, 2007 by peter01

[+peter01 2]

303CAL_VICKERS_MK2 above should be 303CAL_VICKERS_MK1.

Edited September 16, 2007 by peter01

[J18Dread 0]

 

Thanks Peter. I have made the changes and will be testing shortly. This is a much easier method of adding durability and hence playability than changing the dms. Just for the record and to avoid confusion, the changes will end up being on the order of 0.0083, not 8.3 but the method is valid. The gundata.ini is in the Objects folder. Again, thanks.

 

On another note, you said that the Camel and Dr1 have been modified to fly under hard mode. Where might I find these fms? Not a radial/rotary fan, but some are and it would be nice to add them to the multiplay stable. Can the Dr1 do the flat turn, a la Voss?

 

Let me add my voice to the chorus of commendation for the great work you are doing for this game.

[+peter01 2]

Cheers guys, yes the AI is very good. I like it, tho have to say reduced the mg stuff because it got a bit too hard!! Its actually the best of both worlds now, because the AI zoom around dangerously (I think they should too), but its harder for them to shoot you down with reduced mg effectiveness - I survive most furballs now if sides are evenly matched but have to always watch my tail - not get fixated on shooting down planes only.

 

J18Dread, re changes and 0.0083 etc, sounds like you modded the gundata.ini directly. I'm not sure that works. You should use the "Guneditor" program. Its available here at CA as a utility. If you have XP, just make sure you run it in Win 98 mode.

 

Just one thing about reduced mg effectiveness. Some planes will be hard to shoot down. Example is Handley Page, Staaken, Gotha maybe some others (i think the pfalxD3 I did too). If so, its best to reduce DefaultArmorThickness= in FM to say 25 (maybe 30 plus at moment for these). Similar for others if tough to shoot down.

 

Firecage did a good Dr1 for Hard FM a while ago. I have done the Camel and Dr1 recently - in Late War Set here at CA under Flight Models, as is Firecage's.

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention that both Firecages and my Dr1 do indeed do very good flat turns - about 4 secs or less to turn around.

 

Cheers

Edited September 16, 2007 by peter01

[J18Dread 0]

 

Not finding the guneditor. Found this reference, but not the file - GunEditor_V_11_05_04. You are probably right that a direct edit will not work. Seeing some difference, but it seems to be in the wrong direction. Will keep testing.

[+peter01 2]

Its in utility section of thirdwire games, done by Buff, page 4, called "SF Gun Editor for SP3". You may want to pick up the weaponeditor done by Buff there too for later use. I'm pretty sure you have to use these - its why they were developed.

[Guest capun]

Just to set the record straight. Both the gun and weapon editors are by ThirdWire.

 

Since basically the FE engine is the same as the SFP1/WoV/WoE engine you can use most of the tools with all of the TW games.

 

You can find the tools at ThirdWire's WebSite

[J18Dread 0]

Thanks, I found the guneditor and weaponseditor. Nice utilities. Many dimensions and variables. Interestingly, the manual changes seem to be picked up - registered as 8.3, 6, and 8 respectively. Was not able to find anything at the ThirdWire site except for the patch and manual. It would be nice to have all these useful utilities in one spot - hint. Thanks, again. Will keep testing. Could go a long way in fostering great game play.

[+peter01 2]

They may show up in the editor as changed - from your gundata.ini changes.

 

BUT my guess is that they they are unlikely to be in the game.

 

I believe the gundata editor reads the gundata.ini then modifies the gundata.dat file and gundata.ini if you make changes and then save ... but the dat file is the one the game reads. Your manual changes only modded the ini file.

 

Suggest you delete the gundta.ini and start again if you have the extract utility to get it again, if not, then mod the values slightly using the guneditor, save, then redo.

Edited September 16, 2007 by peter01

[Guest capun]

Game editors 101 :)

 

The game uses the GunData.dat and WeaponData.Dat

 

If you do not make any changes both of them are in the Objects.Cat file

 

You use the CAT extractor to get the WeaponData.ini and GunData.ini files

 

The Gundata.ini goes to the Objects Folder

 

The WeaponData.ini can go either to the Objects folder or preferably to a user created Objects/Weapons folder

 

You can text edit the ini file or make the changes using the Editors.

 

IMPORTANT: After you make the changes via the editors you need to SAVE (do not SAVE AS)

 

Changes will be updated to the ini files and more importanly create a new DAT file

 

The game will look for the locat DAT files (remember where they are supposed to be located) if it cannot find it it will load up the files from the CAT file

 

End of Lecture :)

[J18Dread 0]

I am going to start over with a fresh gundata.ini and .dat. I have the worse case of gun jamming, I have ever experienced. I changed the reliability setting from 75 to 85 and it is still bad - not fun. The settings may be too agressive, to the point of being ineffective and frustrating. I might as well be throwing ping pong balls. Back to the drawing board. Thought this could be an easy answer, does not appear so. I will keep trying, but until I find the right settings and then publish the gundata.ini and .dat files, I will not suggest this approach.

[J18Dread 0]

 

I am going to start over with a fresh gundata.ini and .dat. I have the worse case of gun jamming, I have ever experienced. I changed the reliability setting from 75 to 85 and it is still bad - not fun. The settings may be too agressive, to the point of being ineffective and frustrating. I might as well be throwing ping pong balls. Back to the drawing board. Thought this could be an easy answer, does not appear so. I will keep trying, but until I find the right settings and then publish the gundata.ini and .dat files, I will not suggest this approach.

 

:yes:

 

Did it the right way this time. Noticed Reliability was 97 for all guns. Somehow doing it the wrong way changed the reliability (jamming) to 75 for the Spandau. Retesting. Will let you know if there are any problems.

 

[+peter01 2]

Mmmm...

 

Yes, keep the reliability about 97 or 98, I think they were the defaults for all guns....reducing even to 95 if I remember correctly will cause considerably more gun jamming. 85, 75 or less......well! Not sure why this is or how that works, but most other parameters can be tweaked very easily and effects seen immediately as you would expect without such extremes - even rate of fire and accurracy (I like 80 for accuracy but thats another story). Certainly modifying ammo weight.

 

Cheers

Edited September 17, 2007 by peter01

[JediMaster 451]

The all-in-ones like Op Tainted Cigar for SFP1 and NATO Fighters 1 and 2 for WoE are certainly the best intros for noobs...one-stop shopping and all that.

 

However, there's no doubt that bundling these things together seems to take far longer than it does to make them individually, between hacking out permissions and incompatabilities.

[J18Dread 0]

The real jewel in all this is the accuracy adjustment. Changing from 70% to 80% makes a significant difference. I have only really been concentrating on the Spandau, so this appraisal only applies to it. I found 8 to be too light when using Tailspin's engine armor and overall wood armor of 36. I am currently at 10, but may adjust downward slightly.

 

A great utility that I recommend to all, especially to adjust the accuracy. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

Now, if I could get the Zeppelin base to work in Vogesen and weather to work in multiplay.

Edited September 18, 2007 by J18Dread