Fighting the F-4 in MP

[Dagger 21]

OK a few quick tips on dog fighting the F-4..first off Don't get suckered into a turn fight,F-4 isn't a turn fighter,second-use your wingman(if you have one)fight as a team.Remember this is a POWERFUL jet..use the power to extend if you have to,then re engage.the main advantage of the Phantom over alot of jets is it's radar,learn it,use it,live to fight another day.besure to bring gun pods(Phantoms don't come standard with guns).learn to fly low and fast,use the terrain to your advantage,It's very temping to stay and play with migs...DON'T ever do this,Migs can out turn you and they have guns AND cannons.I'll be posting more on thisa soon as I'm still learning this great fighter.This is for MP as human pilots do things the AI pilots never thought of(so to speak).In single player mode the AI isn't that good so you use these tactics for practice or use the ones that seem to work best for you.

[Dark_Knight_667th 0]

Say that to a freakin Mig 17 AI pilot..they keep waxing my tail with those 90 Knt 9 g turns they keep doing..

 

DK

[+pcpilot 181]

Your advice is sound Dagger. Everytime I try to get in a turning fight with a mig, I get toasted becuase he can turn inside me and hit me with his guns at close range. The F4 is a high energy aircraft which loses it quickly in a turn. This brings the plane down very quickly to the migs speed, allowing him to use his guns at close range. I read were the F4 pilots hated the Mig-19 more than the -21 becuse the -21's missles werent that great of a threat and it was a high energy aircraft also that suffered some of the same problems. Were as the -19 was a nimble and fast opponent who's advantage lay in the turning dogfight. Thats what it was designed to do.

American fighters have traditionally been heavier, powerfully engined, and massive firepower. They are not generally good, manueverable dogfighters. Though of course, there are exceptions to the rule. The F6F was a good opponent for the Zero. The F-86 could take on the Mig-15. The F-16 Falcon and F-18 Hornet are no slouches in a dogfight either. American fighters tend to be oreinted more to Tactics like Claire Chennaults' Boom and Zoom tactics against the Japs in China. Thats why it always amazes me all those who prohibit BnZ tactics online like in IL2. They dont know their history or tactics when they do that. They are removing a legitamate Military tactic. I persoanlly think the same for so called "vulching". If you dont like being vulched, then get off yur butt, devise some good response tactics, and take your airspace back. Ask the Germans near the end of their war if they hated vulching? Of course they did. Now ask them if it was effective and cut down on American and Brit losses. Of course it did. But I digress...

Of course, in all things there are exceptions. The F4 is no different. I have been looking all nite nearly for a diagram of the dogfight that Randy Cunningham got into with a North Vietnamese pilot named Toon who had 13 kills to his credit flying against American bombers. This was a dogfight of close range manuever that lasted nearly 5 minutes finally ending in Toon's death and Cunningham being made an Ace. The diagram I have in my Time-Life books on Vietnam is absolutely fascinating, I wish I could post it here but dont have a scanner. What an amazing job cunningham did besting a pilot (Toon) and aircraft (Mig-19) at their own game, and he did it using the F4's advantage in the vertical using the F4's strong climb ability. When you look at the diagram you can see it CAN be done and you wonder how the heck WAS it done? Obviously by a very good NAVY fighter jock. If your that good, you can do it too. If you aint, learn to BnZ first, then maybe learn to dogfight the F4.

 

Here is an excellent article on the dogfighting F4 and R. Cunningham...http://www.donhollway.com/writing/topgun/topgun.html A Damn good story...

 

motor mouth out...

[Seawolf 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the A4 have a better chance at a turning fight with a Mig17?? Although currently in SF the A4 stalls if you sneeze or bleeds off so much energy you cant stay in the fight, but from what I have seen from actual A4 footage I would like the A4 should be a lot more nimble and quicker than what is currently in SF.

I get ticked off because I like flying the scooter and in MP dogfighting I dont stand a chance because the A4 cant maintain corner speed at least not like I think it should, plus will the roll being so wacked out, it doesn't feel as crisp as I think an A4 should. Do we have any real A4 pilots out there that can give us some feedback??

[Qfly 0]

I will have to agree about the A-4.. The actual roll rate was nearly 720 degrees per second.. It would be hard for most planes to keep up in rolling scissors with this kind of roll rate:)

[Guest Ranger332]

As far as "vulching" go its correct term is S.E.A.D.A. (SAPPRESION OF ENEMY AIR DEFENSE AND ASSETS.

 

AND IT IS A VERY GOOD TACTIC, ask the pilots(if you could) at pearl harbor that tried to take off during the attack. We used the tactic during a tourny in F-22L3 and got third place even though we were under staffed in the fight it works. But point of honor if aggred apon prior dont do it ,but in aa attack or co-op do it it will work for you but be ready for your enemy to use it on you to.then dont cry

[+pcpilot 181]

You made a good point Ranger. I do go with whatever the server/host decides are the rules for the game. No vulching rule?, then no vulching. I just like to comment on all those that dont think it is a real tactic.

[Weasel Keeper 0]

We like to call SEAD Weaseling. ;) 8)

 

"Cave Putorium!"

 

http://wildweasels.org/

[Guest Ranger332]

LOL ok put true ww mission "wild weasles" were mostly anti sam missions ie Intruder flights :)

[Weasel Keeper 0]

OMG Ranger, I don't know where to begin! ;)

 

TRUE Wild Weasel missions were started with the USAF F-100 briefly, then tried and tested with the USAF's F-105G, then to the USAF's F-4C, then to the USAF's Advanced Wild Weasel with the all mighty F-4G. You may have heard the F-117 was first "in" during Desert Storm, but in fact it was the F-4G Wild Weasel taking out SAM sites before the stealthy F-117 attacks. Not taking anything away from the Navy's counterpart ie: Intruders, but in this case, Air Force led the way! :)

 

Disclaimer: AF guys are allowed to mess with Squids in interservice rivalries.

[Guest Ranger332]

right idea but wrong units . 101st ABN was the first to first shots clearing the corrador

they used apache helecopters lead in by Pathfinder,and Long Range Recon Troops(L.R.S.U.)

This i know for a fact as i was there , and a part of it!

 

Force 9-101 was selected as the first assault aviation element from the 101st to deploy to Southwest Asia and participated in all major operations including the insertion of pathfinders supporting the initial strike against Iraqi early warning radars. On 23 July (42secs prior to any wepons fireed to include the tomahawks)

 

During Operation Desert Storm, AH-64s were credited with destroying more than 500 tanks plus hundreds of additional armored personnel carriers, trucks and other vehicles. They also were used to destroy vital early warning radar sites, an action that opened the U.N. coalition's battle plan. Apaches also demonstrated the ability to perform when called upon, logging thousands of combat hours at readiness rates in excess of 85 percent during the Gulf War.

 

 

While recovery was ongoing, additional elements of the 11th Aviation Brigade began the next chapter of involvement in the region. On 24 April 1991 the 6th Squadron, 6th Cavalry’s 18 AH-64 helicopters began a self-deployment to Southwest Asia. The Squadron provided aerial security to a 3,000 square kilometer region in Northern Iraq as part of the Combined Task Force of Operation Provide Comfort.

 

Opening Salvo

On January 17, 1991, Desert Storm, the mission to liberate Kuwait began. At 2:38 am, 8 AH-64 Apache helicopters of the 1st Battalion, 101st Aviation Regiment destroyed two Iraqi early warning radar sites, clearing the way for US Air Force strike aircraft on their way to Baghdad. The 101st Airborne Division drew first blood in Desert Storm. Blackhawk helicopters of 1st Battalion were on scene in case any Allied planes were shot down and the pilots needed to be rescued. The Apache gunships continued to attack Iraqi air defense positions. The first mission was a complete success and no losses were recorded for the 101st.

 

During the air campaign, the 101st Aviation Regiment flew hundred of sorties attacking various Iraqi positions. In mid-February, the Aviation units stood down in preparation for the ground war.

 

On February 24, 1991, the 101st and the French 6th Light Armored stepped off on their envelopment of Iraqi forces on the left flank of the Coalition line. A total of 300 helicopters lifted the 101st Airborne to their first objective, FOB COBRA, 110 miles inside Iraq. The 101st achieved complete surprise and the Iraqi forces at COBRA were routed; most were taken prisoner. After a rapid refueling, the 101st lifted off and moved another 60 miles. By the evening of the 24th, Highway 8 was cut and the Iraqi's had lost a key supply line. The 101st consolidated their positions and settled in for the night. That day's operation had been the largest helicopter assault in the history of modern warfare.

 

The next morning, 3rd Brigade (the 187th Infantry Regiment) moved north to occupy positions on the southern bank of the Euphrates River. They met little resistance and quickly captured their objective. The remainder of the 101st, maintained their positions at COBRA and Highway 8 as a blocking force for the main Coalition assault.

 

On February 26 and 27, the 101st began accepting the surrender of thousands of Iraqi soldiers who had been retreating from the massive ground assault. It soon became clear that the war was almost over and there would be little fighting. The 101st began collecting the Iraqi soldiers and sending them to rear areas. In just 100 hours of combat, the 101st had completed the largest, most effective combat helicopter assault ever attempted. Not a single Screaming Eagle lost his life during the battle but victory was complete.

 

Always on call