Carrier landings

[+Typhoid]

I'm guessing you're taking his "fly to the point you want to park" literally. I doubt he was being precise. It's probably more a comment on the slow approach speed compared to land ops, nothing more.

As for the slowing down of the carrier, I don't see anything unusual about that. U-2 ops were not common, but the exception, and I'm sure special adjustments were made for them.

 

yea. "I doubt he was being precise." counts as an understatement.

 

I don't really want to get into a detailed debate on this so I've edited out my earlier comments.

 

I'm taking a "wave-off" from the discussion with my departure call -

 

"Nice Sea Story"

 

 

"As for the slowing down of the carrier"

 

sometime I should discuss FLANCHOROPS

 

(Flight Ops from Anchor)

Edited March 19, 2008 by Typhoid

[Nightshade/PR]

I never let the AI do it. I LOVE the challenge, especially in darkness.

[Stick]

I think its quite credible...the U2 is a glider.Its a creature of the wind.

With optimal headwind , Ive known gliders to come to what seems to be a dead stop.Its merely riding the wind-the main criterion for being airborne is whether lift is being generated.That can happen at any altitude.

In fact in India you should see the Pariah kite;its a bird that completely enhances the definition of flight. When there is a storm rising you should watch these guys surf gale speed winds( Im talking about the fearsome Nor'westers prevalent in the sub-continent) with such aplomb that might make Mudcat Walker bristle in indignation.

Edited May 18, 2008 by Stick

[+Typhoid]

I think its quite credible...the U2 is a glider.Its a creature of the wind.

With optimal headwind , Ive known gliders to come to what seems to be a dead stop.Its merely riding the wind-the main criterion for being airborne is whether lift is being generated.That can happen at any altitude.

In fact in India you should see the Pariah kite;its a bird that completely enhances the definition of flight. When there is a storm rising you should watch these guys surf gale speed winds( Im talking about the fearsome Nor'westers prevalent in the sub-continent) with such aplomb that might make Mudcat Walker bristle in indignation.

 

you mean "hovering" over the flight deck spot?

 

what's the approach speed of the "glider" and what is the carrier's WOD?

 

not possible to hover into the intended spot.

[Stick]

28Kts -50kts is that the kind of wind we're talking about? anything more than that and ill buy you a drink before we discuss that any further.

[Jug]

you mean "hovering" over the flight deck spot?

 

what's the approach speed of the "glider" and what is the carrier's WOD?

 

not possible to hover into the intended spot.

 

Let me make sure that my tall tales are in perspective. I have never landed on an aircraft carrier in a U-2 and I don't believe I said I ever did. I, and other pilots, had long discussions with Tony Lavier (spelling-Lockheed test pilot) who did land a U-2 aboard an aircraft carrier. My description of the events and effects are what I got from him. I have made practice approaches in the U-2 to the carrier runway painted on the field runway at NAS Lemoore. U-2 operations on-board carriers were the very rare exception and not the rule. Facts associated with these exceptional carrier landings were not standard NATOPs procedures. Approach speed for the U-2 is 70-72 Knots. Carriers top speed is classified, but getting up to 40-50 knots can be done on a relatively calm sea. Sea breezes run from 15 to 25 knots on a regular day (according to the sailors I know). Let's do the math. 70 knots final approach speed minus 45 knots ship's speed is 25 knots closure on the ship. 25 knots closure on the ship minus the 15-25 knots sea breeze (ship turns into the wind for landings) is anywhere from 0 to 10 Knots closure on the ship. The increase in flap extension from 30 degrees to 40 degrees results in a power-on approach (vs the 68% [idle] to 71% normal approach throttle setting) for the U-2 because of the extensive additonal drag. According to Tony, you could run out of gas just trying to making it up to the carrier deck and if the wind was right you could almost power-on "hover" the U-2 (final approach speed matching the cumulative effects of the speed of the carrier and the speed of the relative wind) to the spot on the deck you wanted to land on and chop the power. U-2 landed right there and ususally drifted aft several feet. The U-2 is notorious for low speed handling (very physical) so all of this adds up to something that could be done, but not recommended on a day-to-day basis. Therefore, it remained an operational option, but not exercised outside of the original testing to my knowledge.

 

Not sure what ruffled who's feathers in this discussion, but I'll be happy to keep my war stories for other forums if they are unacceptable here.

[+Syrinx]

Come on guys let's not turn this thread into something silly.

 

If anyone has any "issues" with anything said then take it to PM and discuss it there. Thanks.

[+Syrinx]

....anyway, you've got to land on a carrier manually. Using the AI is for nuns and amateurs

 

Practice, practice, practice...then practice some more.

[Stick]

HIC!

[+Typhoid]

Let me make sure that my tall tales are in perspective. I have never landed on an aircraft carrier in a U-2 and I don't believe I said I ever did. I, and other pilots, had long discussions with Tony Lavier (spelling-Lockheed test pilot) who did land a U-2 aboard an aircraft carrier. My description of the events and effects are what I got from him. I have made practice approaches in the U-2 to the carrier runway painted on the field runway at NAS Lemoore. U-2 operations on-board carriers were the very rare exception and not the rule. Facts associated with these exceptional carrier landings were not standard NATOPs procedures. Approach speed for the U-2 is 70-72 Knots. Carriers top speed is classified, but getting up to 40-50 knots can be done on a relatively calm sea. Sea breezes run from 15 to 25 knots on a regular day (according to the sailors I know). Let's do the math. 70 knots final approach speed minus 45 knots ship's speed is 25 knots closure on the ship. 25 knots closure on the ship minus the 15-25 knots sea breeze (ship turns into the wind for landings) is anywhere from 0 to 10 Knots closure on the ship. The increase in flap extension from 30 degrees to 40 degrees results in a power-on approach (vs the 68% [idle] to 71% normal approach throttle setting) for the U-2 because of the extensive additonal drag. According to Tony, you could run out of gas just trying to making it up to the carrier deck and if the wind was right you could almost power-on "hover" the U-2 (final approach speed matching the cumulative effects of the speed of the carrier and the speed of the relative wind) to the spot on the deck you wanted to land on and chop the power. U-2 landed right there and ususally drifted aft several feet. The U-2 is notorious for low speed handling (very physical) so all of this adds up to something that could be done, but not recommended on a day-to-day basis. Therefore, it remained an operational option, but not exercised outside of the original testing to my knowledge.

 

Not sure what ruffled who's feathers in this discussion, but I'll be happy to keep my war stories for other forums if they are unacceptable here.

 

ruffled feathers? from a sea story?

 

not me!! I have heard and told one or two of those over the years......

 

always good for a good yarn. Keep them coming!!!!

 

however, lets do run a couple of the numbers for clarity/reality sake.

 

First off - carrier speeds in the range of 45+ knots are pure fantasy. Trust me on this one...

Max speeds of even the nuke boats is only in the "mid-30's" and the conventional carriers were just a tad less. The numbers can be run by the boat engineers who take gross displacement and max horsepower and compute stuff. All of the legends about fantastic cv speeds were just that. Legends with large doses of adult medicinals to help grease the tales! I don't recall ever seeing anything above 32.

 

In actual flight ops the ship would manuever to achieve a desired WOD. Not just blast into the wind at max thrust. Any OOD who went outside of the normal parameters would be toast served up by the Air Boss to the CO in short order!!!!

 

Normal sea breezes are around the 15-25 knots as noted above. The ship would manuever for WOD in the 25-35 knot range. Anything more makes aircraft spotting difficult and life very hazardous and short for the flight deck crews. So the ship would actually be maneuvering to maintain that optimum WOD and down the centerline on the angle. On occasion, bare steerage (2 to 3 knots) might be called for.

 

So closure on the ship is going to be entirely dependent upon the natural wind and ship speed, but the ship will be maneuvering, again, to maintain the 25-35 knot WOD range. So with say a 20 knot wind speed the ship would be making, maybe, 10 knots to put 30 WOD. Taking the 70 knot approach speed of the U-2 and subtracting the 30 knots of WOD and ship speed you end up with about 40 knots of closure. That is still mind-wrenching to the rest of us tailhood types, but certainly a leisurely approach and still far and away from the "hover into the spot" that Tony Lavier was spinning to you all.

 

As a frame of reference, in the E-2 we came aboard at 105 approach speed, minus the 30 gave us a 75 closure. I recall the Phantom being in the 145 kias approach (don't know for sure) so with the same numbers that closure would be about 115 knots closure and engagement speed (the engagement speeds for the wires and barrier are a whole other discussion).

 

Not to mention, that we would sometimes fly from anchor which we called "FlanchorOps". I did that several times, one of which was a fairly tense (at the time) sea story for another time.

 

At any rate, enjoyed the yarn.

 

Edited May 23, 2008 by Typhoid