guru help / pointers sought

[sparkomatic 7]

Eh, working on a little project...couple of specific issues that are interesting...

 

1.) The "rudder" in the B-2 (as far as I understand it) is more like differential air brakes...think of the air brakes on the A-10, then the left one opening for "left rudder" input...no idea how to get the game to do this...currently I pulled the "trick" of telling the data.ini that there is a rudder there and that it does "x" so that it flies correctly since this seemed to my novice mind the best way to mimic the fly-by-wire system anyway...but the animation of the meshes...help?

 

2.) The B-2 seems to have a customizable bomb bay in that it can carry "x" of 500#, then "y" of 1000#, then a rotary launcher for other tasks...but this is arranged according to the mission planning and could be different for each flight...how to get around that in the data.ini? So far I set it to a JDAM-like load out as why would any one take a $1.2 billion B-2 and drop slicks from it any way? The difference being 16-weapons versus like 80 (reference below).

 

3.) Also ran into a little linking / animation issue that will take too long to explain here, prefer to take it PM

 

 

**** read this before you post a reply ****

 

- This is NOT, repeat NOT the one that Marcfighter was working on and I have no information whatsoever about it, you want to know, ask him

 

- Please do NOT ask when it will be ready or released...

 

- Also, not to bring the "stealth debate" here, but I was reading on TK's forums and an older post he said that RCS= 0.0 was "stealth" but that he also said that it may change...and has there been any update on how ECM works in the game? I noticed that ECM has a "power value" and was wondering what the maximum would be? Didnt see one set over 100, but am not far enough along in testing to start tweaking that kind of stuff...curious if some one else has tried those values?

 

****

 

Here is the B-2 load-out details (open source):

 

2 internal bays for 50,000 lb (22,700 kg) of ordnance.[27]

 

* 80× 500 lb class bombs (Mk-82) mounted on Bomb Rack Assembly (BRA)

* 36× 750 lb CBU class bombs on BRA

* 16× 2000 lb class weapons (Mk-84, JDAM-84, JDAM-102) mounted on Rotary Launcher Assembly (RLA)

* 16× B61 or B83 nuclear weapons on RLA

 

 

A photo:

[+Gocad 26]

First of all...

 

2.) The B-2 seems to have a customizable bomb bay in that it can carry "x" of 500#, then "y" of 1000#, then a rotary launcher for other tasks...but this is arranged according to the mission planning and could be different for each flight...how to get around that in the data.ini?

 

Creating multiple instances of a bomb bay, each configured for a different weapon type (an EOGB station, a BOMB station, etc. each with its own parameters regarding weapon restrictions) is possible and shouldn't be much of a problem to do.

 

This should serve as an example, unless I totally missed what you're actually asking for:

 

[bombBay1-Mk82]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=1

StationGroupID=1

StationType=INTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=0.0,0.0,0.0

AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0

LoadLimit=20000.0

AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB

AttachmentType=USAF

NumWeapons=20

AttachmentPosition001=X,Y,Z

...

AttachmentPosition020=X,Y,Z

DiameterLimit=0.26

LengthLimit=2.2

...

 

[bombBay1-CBU]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=2

StationGroupID=1

StationType=INTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=0.0,0.0,0.0

AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0

LoadLimit=20000.0

AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB

AttachmentType=USAF

NumWeapons=9

AttachmentPosition001=X,Y,Z

...

AttachmentPosition009=X,Y,Z

DiameterLimit=0.44

LengthLimit=2.35

...

 

[bombBay1-Mk84 & JDAM]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=3

StationGroupID=1

StationType=INTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=0.0,0.0,0.0

AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0

LoadLimit=20000.0

AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,EOGB

AttachmentType=USAF

NumWeapons=4

AttachmentPosition001=X,Y,Z

...

AttachmentPosition004=X,Y,Z

DiameterLimit=0.47

LengthLimit=3.76

...

 

[bombBay1-NUC]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=4

StationGroupID=1

StationType=INTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=0.0,0.0,0.0

AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0

LoadLimit=20000.0

AllowedWeaponClass=NUC

AttachmentType=USAF

NumWeapons=4

AttachmentPosition001=X,Y,Z

...

AttachmentPosition020=X,Y,Z

DiameterLimit=0.44

LengthLimit=3.61

 

[bombBay2-Mk82]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=5

StationGroupID=2

...

etc.

 

 

But based on what I know I do doubt that there is a way around the fact that there can be only one predefined loadout per mission type (i.e. STRIKE, ATTACK, etc.)

 

Btw, bear in mind that an aircraft loaded with smart bombs (EOGB & LGB) won't be of much use as an AI strike aircraft.

Edited April 15, 2008 by Gocad

[FastCargo 412]

Actually Sparky, I've been wrapping my head around this issue (the bombbay) myself. Here's what I've come up with so far:

 

First, forget about rotary launchers. You could do them...even make them a pylon that rotates, but you can't control how much it rotates (all or nothing) and any weapons that are dropped at an rotational angle will still 'fly' at that angle. Prime example is dropping an ALCM from a B-52 pylon on the outer stations...it will fly in a bank the whole way to the target.

 

Now, some other limitations. You can only have 6 selectable loadout groups, and only 32 weapon stations total. Anymore loadout groups will not be visible...and any more weapon stations won't show up at all.

 

So, working within those limitations, what I've come up with is the following:

 

Each bay you divide lengthwise into four spaces. Each space conforms to a loadout group. The 'spaces' are 'paired' across the bays, so you end up with 4 loadout groups.

 

Now, each space has room to fit either:

 

10 small weapons (SDBs, mk82 class weapons) or

4 medium weapons (CBU class weapons) or

2 large weapons (mk84 class weapons, JSOW).

 

Which equals = 80 smalls, 32 medium, 16 large weapons...pretty close to what you want.

 

Now, taking a page from what Gocad put up:

 

[bombBay1-Mk82]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=1

StationGroupID=1

StationType=INTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=0.0,0.0,0.0

AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0

LoadLimit=20000.0

AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB

AttachmentType=USAF

NumWeapons=20

AttachmentPosition001=X,Y,Z

...

AttachmentPosition020=X,Y,Z

DiameterLimit=0.26

LengthLimit=2.2

...

 

[bombBay1-CBU]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=2

StationGroupID=1

StationType=INTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=0.0,0.0,0.0

AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0

LoadLimit=20000.0

AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB

AttachmentType=USAF

NumWeapons=9

AttachmentPosition001=X,Y,Z

...

AttachmentPosition009=X,Y,Z

DiameterLimit=0.44

LengthLimit=2.35

...

 

[bombBay1-Mk84 & JDAM]

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=3

StationGroupID=1

StationType=INTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=0.0,0.0,0.0

AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0

LoadLimit=20000.0

AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,EOGB

AttachmentType=USAF

NumWeapons=4

AttachmentPosition001=X,Y,Z

...

AttachmentPosition004=X,Y,Z

DiameterLimit=0.47

LengthLimit=3.76

 

Now, here's where guys get into problems with visual conflicts (making it look right). Note how all the entries are in the same loadout group.

 

There isn't a problem here if you want to load large weapons. Say for a weapon that is 3.75 meters in length, you can look and see that it only fits in one weaponstation (StationID=3) because it's too long for the others. No muss, no fuss.

 

The problem is when you start loading smaller weapons. Say you want to load mk82s that are only 2.18 meters long. It's also a BOMB AllowedWeaponClass. Well, the problem is that it will fit in all three weaponstations. So the engine will fill all of the weapon stations with that weapon. Which means if you used the same coordinates for your large weapons as well as the others, you'll now end up with multiple weapons in the same visual space.

 

So, how to build? Here's a picture representing how to do it:

 

 

Red is small, Green is medium, Blue is large. The upper group of 3 colors is the relative spacing each weapon takes. You can visually see the problem. The reds will still fit into spaces made for the greens. And the reds and greens will still fit into spaces made for blues.

 

The lower group of 3 represents how to build the weaponstations.

 

Build the smallest stations that can fit 6 weapons in spaces noted in red.

 

Build the medium stations that can fit 2 weapons in the spaces noted in green.

 

Build the large stations that can fit 2 weapons in the spaces noted in blue.

 

You now have a setup that can fit your 10, 4 or 2 weapons as appropriate, and will look right too.

 

Now, your weapons bay may not be big enough to fit 10 small weapons as you see them. You may have to play around with 'stagger' to get it to work. I would recommend getting the exact dimensions of the bay. Also, if a weapon has large fins, that will throw the 'spacing' off.

 

The nice thing about this kind of setup is now you can have 'mix and match' weapons in the same aircraft (even the same bay). Little bit of Mk82s for runway denial, little SDBs for anti tank action, little JDAMs for shelter plinking, and a little CBU for soft targets...

 

FastCargo

[+Gocad 26]

The problem is when you start loading smaller weapons. Say you want to load mk82s that are only 2.18 meters long. It's also a BOMB AllowedWeaponClass. Well, the problem is that it will fit in all three weaponstations. So the engine will fill all of the weapon stations with that weapon. Which means if you used the same coordinates for your large weapons as well as the others, you'll now end up with multiple weapons in the same visual space.

 

I totally forgot that the game would do that.

Instead of sorting the weaponstations from small to large weapons I should have done it vice versa:

 

[bombBay - Lg bombs] x4

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=1

StationGroupID=1

StationType=INTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=0.0,0.0,0.0

AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0

LoadLimit=20000.0

AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,EOGB,NUC

AttachmentType=USAF

NumWeapons=4 (Total number would be 16)

AttachmentPosition001=X,Y,Z

...

AttachmentPosition004=X,Y,Z

DiameterLimit=0.47

LengthLimit=3.76

...

 

[bombBay - CBU] x 4

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=2

StationGroupID=1

StationType=INTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=0.0,0.0,0.0

AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0

LoadLimit=20000.0

AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB

AttachmentType=USAF

NumWeapons=5 (another 20 mounts for the CBUs)

AttachmentPosition001=X,Y,Z

...

AttachmentPosition005=X,Y,Z

DiameterLimit=0.44

LengthLimit=2.35

...

 

[bombBay - Mk82] x4

SystemType=WEAPON_STATION

StationID=3

StationGroupID=1

StationType=INTERNAL

AttachmentPosition=0.0,0.0,0.0

AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0

LoadLimit=20000.0

AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB

AttachmentType=USAF

NumWeapons=11 (...and finally 44 mounts for the Mk82 only)

AttachmentPosition001=X,Y,Z

...

AttachmentPosition011=X,Y,Z

DiameterLimit=0.26

LengthLimit=2.2

...

 

That would ensure that you have the proper amount of attachment points, i.e. no more than 80 Mk82s can be loaded, but I would dread the task to figure out the respective attachment positions...

Edited April 15, 2008 by Gocad

[+Dels 649]

1.) The "rudder" in the B-2 (as far as I understand it) is more like differential air brakes...think of the air brakes on the A-10, then the left one opening for "left rudder" input...no idea how to get the game to do this...currently I pulled the "trick" of telling the data.ini that there is a rudder there and that it does "x" so that it flies correctly since this seemed to my novice mind the best way to mimic the fly-by-wire system anyway...but the animation of the meshes...help?

 

Dude,

 

You're correct about the FM. You will have to set up a standard rudder which will act as the aerodynamic rudder in the game. As for the animation, you will need to create a set of dummy/helper meshes to animate the split ailerons. These control surfaces will have no aerodynamic values and will be purely cosmetic.

 

If you need some help, have a look at the _DATA.ini of the F-23A I built. I had to do pretty much the same thing (except the split ailerons).

 

Good luck.

 

Dels

[sparkomatic 7]

- thank you gentlemen, this is exactly what I was needing...but man...80 coord-sets for slicks is a lot more work...hmmm

 

- that was what I was needing also was how to get the mix-match load outs approaching looking right, thanks!

 

- good point on AI operations as well...

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,557]

This Project sounds very interesting and I`m looking forward to this. Here is a great knowledge comin together!

[sparkomatic 7]

Dels, eh you are referring to the rudders as air brakes in the F-23 ? Man, I should have already looked there! Thanks!

[Fubar512 1,350]

You do not have to set up a "dummy" vertical stab, Sparky. You just simply add the necessary anti-yaw parameters and their associated tables to the fuselage section. As for yaw control using the "rudderons", well, that's not hard to do. Again, look at existing rudder entries for guidance.

[sparkomatic 7]

- thanks

 

- am having an odd linking issue...right now everything is linked to the scene (not smart I know)...but as I try to do animation and thus need to re-link things...it does not work at all...tried to unlink everything and then XFORM re-set...that did not work...tried to unlink everything except the fuselage from the scene, then XFORM reset, then link every parent to the fuselage...that did not work

 

- also it does not matter if I link only one object or all of the objects the results are the same:

 

Before any link adjustments:

 

 

 

 

And after unlinking, XFORM reset, linking only nose tires to nose hubs...chaos

[sparkomatic 7]

"As for yaw control using the "rudderons", well, that's not hard to do. Again, look at existing rudder entries for guidance."

 

 

- eh, would you mind narrowing the search a bit? all of the rudder entries I stared at are either a traditional vert stab or a combination system like the F-23...either way, getting 4 different directions from the one button is unknown to my complete lack of skill...do you simply animate it in the 3ds and then add an AnimationID line to the data.ini ?

[+Dels 649]

"As for yaw control using the "rudderons", well, that's not hard to do. Again, look at existing rudder entries for guidance."

 

 

- eh, would you mind narrowing the search a bit? all of the rudder entries I stared at are either a traditional vert stab or a combination system like the F-23...either way, getting 4 different directions from the one button is unknown to my complete lack of skill...do you simply animate it in the 3ds and then add an AnimationID line to the data.ini ?

 

You'll need to set up a heirarchy in 3dsmax based on what needs to move and how. If we use this B-2 for example, this is what I'd expect the heirarchy to look like (minus all the other meshes):

 

Fuselage

Left_Wing

Left_Aileron <-----------------------(this is a dummy mesh)

Left_Airbrake_Top <-------------(this is a dummy mesh)

Left_Rudder_Top <------------(this is the actual visible control surface)

Left_Airbrake_Bottom <---------(this is a dummy mesh)

Left_Rudder_Bottom <--------(this is the actual visible control surface)

 

You will need to animate the airbrakes splitting in 3dsmax but the rest will move from the entries in the Control Surface section in the _DATA.ini.