Phantom Tactics

[wagsled 0]

To all Phantom Drivers (especially those frustrated by the dogfight performance of all F-4 models):

 

After deciding to check out the Phantom FM's as suggested by another virtual pilot here, I got fairly serious and flew several Combat Air Patrol missions with the F-4B. I used SFP1, fully patched, desert terrain, year selected was 1969. Load was 4 x AIM-9E, 4 x AIM-7E, centerline gun pod, no external tanks. All ended up as two-plane flights and the bogies were always MiG-21's for some reason; in the last mission there were 10 of them. (Believe me, I would have bugged out after a kill or two in real-life with those kind of odds, but since I can only hurt my pride here I stayed to fight.)

 

Anyway, I used the FM mods - further tweaked - that I suggested in an earlier thread, now shown here:

 

[FlightControl]

StallSpeed=65.15

CruiseSpeed=246.93

ClimbSpeed=231.5

CornerSpeed=216.07

MaxG=7.50

MaxSpeedSL=377.75

MachLimit=2.14

PitchDamper=0.75

RollDamper=0.4

YawDamper=0.1

GunBoresightAngle=-2

RocketBoresightAngle=-5

 

I'm pretty sure these are good numbers (at least for now) and I thought that the performance of the F-4B with these settings was similar to real life. Handling qualities are still a bit off, but I'm not smart enough to figure out how to change them.

 

Now to the tactics. The following are basic suggestions (as I remember them) directly from the USN TOPGUN School and the USMC Air Combat Tactics Instructor (ACTI) courses on how to fight low-wing-loaded opponents like the MiG-17's and -21's. If you use these along with some good common sense, the Phantom can be a real MiG killer...we proved it in Vietnam, over and over.

 

1. Fight them vertically - use the power of the Phantom and keep your speed up. Except at the top of the "egg", don't let your speed drop below 350 KIAS and only do that when you have to. Also, the MiG-17 doesn't roll well at high speed - no power boost on the controls.

2. Use lag-pursuit...best described as putting yourself in a pursuit curve that leads your a/c to a deep six o'clock position on the bogey. Think of it like a cone or funnel that the bogey drags around behind him with the small end on his tailpipe. You want to be in the wide part of the funnel, usually between 3/4 mile and 1 mile astern. Remember, the Phantom's primary weapon in a dogfight is the AIM-9, not the gun. Gun kills are the best - believe me, I know - but the gun is really there for situations when you just get too close and can't back off to beyond the AIM-9's minimum range - or for when you are out of missiles and can't bug out! Also, Navy and Marine birds didn't always carry a gun pod, so it wasn't even an option sometimes.

3. If you start getting slow, try to pass the bogey as close to 180 degree out as you can, unload (push the nose over), stroke the burners and extend. And, ladies and gents, I'm talking extend to five or six miles separation. Get lots of knots, 550+, select boresight on the radar and the AIM-7E, pitch up and back into the fight, auto acquire that bad-boy and shoot him in the face with the Sparrow. You'll find this works pretty well.

4. Finally, if you are getting into a bad position, tell your wingman to head for home, unload, go for the deck and get the hell out of there. You can always live to fight another day.

 

Using the above tactics (and a whole bunch of luck), I managed to get six of those ten MiG-21's I mentioned earlier, even though my wingman went down early in the fight, and then I flew home to land. Not a bad mission and, believe me, not at all representative of what a real dogfight against those odds would have been like. I truly doubt I could have made it home had that situation ever presented itself in 'Nam. Also, with my wingman down early, I would have taken the first opportunity to get the hell out of there. Four guys on the ground that need to be rescued is a lot worse than two!

 

I dusted my WOV off this evening and tried the F-4B out in a dogfight with some MiG-21's. The basic handling is not representative at all, with directional control (yaw using rudders) for fine tuning a guns solution just about impossible. Pitch and roll seemed a bit slow to me as well and both those axes did not damp out occillations as they should. This is one of the reasons I changed the damper settings for all three axes in the F-4 data.ini. In the F-4's (all models I flew) as long as the stability augmentation was on and working (and it did most of the time), the Phantom was a pretty stable gun platform, especially at low to medium altitudes. In fact, we often turned roll stab aug off in dogfights so we could increase our roll rates and not experience any feedback (felt as mild, jerky push-back in the roll axis) from the augmentation. The F-4B in WOV is also over-powered. I never saw over 700 KTAS on the deck in any F-4, yet the F-4B in WOV will do 830...that's 1.15 Mach, way too fast.

 

I then installed the MF F-4G in WOV. Although it seems to be a bit less "twitchy" than the F-4B, it too is very over-powered and doesn't bleed energy as an F-4E would. I'm assuming they didn't put souped up J-79s in the F-4G - if they did, that might account for some of the excess power. I didn't get a chance to fly the F-4G, so I'm guess here. At any rate, try it out on the deck in full burner...something like 768 KTAS. I'd believe 685 KTAS on the deck, maybe.

 

I'm going to try some mods to the FM's for the Phantoms in WOV to see if I can get them to fly as I think they should. That won't mean they are correct, by the way; just that they'll sort of feel the way an old guy like me thinks they should.

 

I certainly don't mind telling you a bit about the more mundane aspects of combat missions in the F-4. I'm not sure that the ThirdWire sims are able to simulate post takeoff rejoins and normal landing procedures (nor should they be, given that they are "lite" sims). Having said that, just for fun you can perform a normal rejoin following takeoff with this fairly common procedure. One good thing is that you are always the lead plane in TW sims. That will help make this a bit more possible.

 

Generally, we used single-plane takeoff (i.e. each bird took off on its own) although it wasn't uncommon to use formation takeoffs where each section of two F-4s took off in formation. That was used, not to be cool (although it was fun), but to get more birds in the air quickly. Even on the ground, the Phantom ate lots of JP-4 (fuel) and sitting around waiting to takeoff was not good. When we had to launch 12 or 16 birds at once, formation takeoffs were sometimes the answer. One difference from reality in this sim is that the entire flight, generally up to four a/c, all took the runway together, even if we then took off separately. Interval between each bird releasing brakes depended on things like the weather, type of rejoin briefed, ordnance load, etc., but usually between 5 and 30 seconds. (It could be longer if the weather was really dogs__t and we needed to rejoin in IFR conditions using the radar.) Two types of rejoin were normally used, turning or straight ahead. For a turning rejoin, once lead was airborne and cleaned up he would start a turn (could be level or climbing, depending on the situation) using about 30 degrees bank angle and a constant speed. Speed for rejoin was always briefed and was usually 350 KIAS. Wingmen joined on the inside of the turn, coming up along the extended wing line of the leader's aircraft until aboard. Once the flight of two or four was together, lead would proceed on course or look for the other flights to join in a larger formation. Straight ahead rejoin was as you might expect, lead held a constant airspeed (again usually 350 KIAS) as he proceeded on course and the wingmen joined from straight astern. That's how the sim portrays rejoin, but the speed (if you use autopilot just to watch) is usually too high.

 

Also, climbout was usually made simple by using around 360 KIAS to maybe 380 KIAS and taking whatever rate of climb that gave you. Of course, there were climb charts that you could use to make the most of your fuel, but that was not used in combat very often...just too much trouble to stay on the numbers. Your attention needed to be elsewhere and trimming the bird up to climb at 350 KIAS meant you didn't have to pay much attention to it.

 

For VFR landings, as long a no one was shot up or really short on fuel, mostly we would fly in formation to the initial point (six or eight miles out from the approach end of the runway), in a tight, right echelon formation at 360-400 KIAS at 1,500' (USAF) or 1,000' (USN/USMC). Lead would take the flight down the runway and, at the mid-point, would perform a pattern break turn to the left, pop his boards as he pulled power to idle, holding altitude level, and roll out 180 degrees from the runway heading, i.e. parallel to the runway, about 1/2 mile abeam, drop gear and flaps, and start his turn to land. Each wingman followed at 4 second interval, duplicating what lead did. If done correctly, this is an excellent looking arrival and got all birds on the deck pretty quickly.

 

Even when really tired from long flights or from a tough combat mission, pilots took a lot of pride in the way the formation looked coming into the field (or at the boat). The echelon formation had to be tight and steady (no bouncing around on the wing), the interval between a/c had to be the same (if #2 broke late, #3 and #4 used the same interval just to make it look good), and the turn had to be level. Many a wingman's backside was chewed for screwing up the "break". We had a saying, at least in the Marine Corps, about coming into the break, "Rather be dead than look bad."

 

Obviously, for bad weather or a shot-up bird, the straight-in approach either VFR or IFR was preferred. When operating from a runway, we often used formation landings in IFR conditions in order to get the birds down before someone ran out of fuel. Obviously, you can't do that at the boat! Flying a formation landing to full-stop in 100' ceiling and 1/4 mile visibility was really sporty - but then so was coming aboard the boat at night in lousy weather and rough seas. For guys operating off the boat, sometimes the most difficult part of the mission was just getting aboard! Lots of balls in those boys! (And now in girls too, I should add, given that we have female fighter pilots in the USN!)

 

I've rambled on...probably bored most folks silly. I hope this information was what you wanted but if not, ask again and add a bit more detail.

 

Take care,

 

Wags

[MigBuster 2,884]

No top notch - many thanks for your time

 

Two planes at a time is possible in this series - in the Yankee Air Pirate missions a lot are started with both you and the wingman on the runway so you can attempt to do the formation takeoff (and fail miserably) - not sure ive seen a 4 plane take off attempted though.

[wagsled 0]

No top notch - many thanks for your time

 

Two planes at a time is possible in this series - in the Yankee Air Pirate missions a lot are started with both you and the wingman on the runway so you can attempt to do the formation takeoff (and fail miserably) - not sure ive seen a 4 plane take off attempted though.

 

 

Thanks, CoolHand29,

 

I'll see if I can try the section takeoff (2 birds). We never did 4-plane formation takeoffs, just two sections of two taking off one after the other. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Regards,

 

Wags

[mppd 16]

Wag,

Thanks again for the response, you are very kind. Formation takeoffs in twos should be workable in a mission flying as wingman, but the wingies will wait for you to get into the air if you fly as lead in the sim. Single ship landings are same as lead, but as No. 2 I guess you could try to hang on! I have spent way too much time modding textures and decals instead of flying this sim - now with 100 YAP missions on my PC I'm way overdue!

 

Thanks again, and by all means keep posting anything that can help make this sim more real than it already is!

 

Mike