P-3 Mishap

[+Typhoid 231]

interesting email thread going around on a recent P-3 mishap. My comments are the last ones at the top of this thread. I've deleted the other identifying addresses. I hope the photos come through.

 

This underscores the hazards of flight ops when one focuses on one item to the exclusion of other factors. There are quite a few indicators in this thread of things not going well these days in the P-3 world...........

 

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hmmm....

 

coming in doing a drill with one engine out and they have another engine "surge", so they shut down the bad one before bringing the perfectly good one (on the same side) back up while not watching their airspeed?!!!!!

 

I've done enough FCF myself sitting between two T-56 engines (the same engine - but we mount ours right side up!) to know that was a significant "contributory factor" to this mishap.

 

five rotations from 5500ft!!!!

 

lucky they're still alive. Should be an interesting discussion at their FNAEB........!

 

 

 

Subject: FW: Whidbey P-3 spin, 7G pullout

 

 

An exciting story that I am most happy NOT to have witnessed.

 

 

 

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Subject: FW: Whidbey P-3 spin, 7G pullout

 

 

 

Surprising tale of USN P-3 Orion mishap (near crash!)

 

 

 

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The "borrowing" applies mainly to the P-3's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What the hell were they (not) thinking when they shut down #2 without first firewalling #1? Even dumb jet jocks understand that 2 dead engines on one wing is not a condition you want to find yourself in. Almost as scary is the statement that the Navy has so few airplanes that they don’t belong to the squadrons any more – they must be “borrowed†from the wing. “Dad, can I have the keys to old 161331 today? I promise I’ll drive with both hands on the wheel and no drag racing.â€

 

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Last Tuesday, 22 Jul 2008, a P-3 Orion from VP-1 was flying an approach to NAS Whidbey Island with the #1 engine in a simulated failure mode. At 160 KIAS, the #2 engine started to surge, so they had to chop power to it. As all this was happening, they were still decelerating, so by the time they added power to #3 and #4, they were at 122 knots, and in the dry terms of investigators, "departed controlled flight". The P-3 did FIVE rotations in a flat spin, dropping 5500 feet, finally recovering between 50 and 200 feet AGL (above ground level), pulling a whopping 7 positive G's on the airframe after sustaining 2.4 negative G's in the spin. The rolling pullout burst 45 rivets on one wing, physically RIPPED the main spar, and bent the entire airframe... the crew could see INSIDE the fuel tanks of the wing.

 

 

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The P-3C that almost went into Puget Sound waters a few days ago was from NAS Whidbey. It was a CPW-10 aircraft being operated by VP-1. Squadrons don't own aircraft any more. The P-3 fleet has so deteriorated because of under-funding and over-use that there are less than 100 still flyable*. The P-3s belong to the wing and are "lent to the squadrons on an as-needed" basis.

 

 

The mission was a NATOPS pilot check, with a CPW-10 pilot (LT) aboard, a VP-1 LT and LTJG, plus VP-1 aircrewmen that included two flight engineers. The word is that the crew finally recovered control of the aircraft about 100 feet above MSL by pulling 7 Gs. The bird was landed back at NASW. Max damage was sustained by the aircraft, including almost tearing off a wing. Aircraft BuNo 161331.

 

 

At Whidbey, P-3C 161331 was doing a Functional Check Flight.� They could see the inside of the fuel tanks when they landed.� SDRS recorded the flaps being raised and the landing gear being cycled down and then back up. Aircraft released all the fuel in tank #3 when it appears that the seam between planks 3 and 4 split. Tank #4 also lost its fuel load when plank #1 separated from rest of the aircraft wing.

 

 

 

 

P-3 Incident BUNO 161331 Class A Mishap!

 

 

 

Take a look at this. Unbelievable that the crew survived. This is out of Whidbey I believe yesterday or the day before.

 

 

Here is some of what has been passed from this event coming from reliable sources:

 

 

There's a lot more to this mishap. 45 consecutive rivets were pulled out on the stbd wing during the 7 g pull out (rolling pull), after peaking at negative 2.4g's as well. They did five spin rotations from 5500 ft- - they bottomed out "between 50 and 200 ft"!! They could see the inside of the fuel tanks when they landed. I'll forward the pictures this evening.

 

 

They were at 160 KIAS, appr flaps during a prop fails to feather drill on #1 when #2 started surging. They bagged #2, but while doing so got to 122 KIAS. When they added power, they were way below Vmcair, and departed. About a minute later, just before impact, they recovered.

 

 

Source is from DC. talking with investigators in Whidbey.

 

 

Subject: P-3 Incident BUNO 161331

 

 

I knew there was a reason I hated doing FCF's.

 

 

Check this out...

 

 

For your SA we had an P-3 Class A today (not a mishap but by the material condition of the aircraft they are calling it a class A). Here's the preliminary info I have:

 

 

At Whidbey, BN 161331 was doing a FCF and shut down #1 engine, with #1 off, #2 engine exhibited vibrations and was shutdown. With two engines off on the same side the aircraft stalled and was recovered at 100 feet. 7 G's were reported to pull it out of the stall. The aircraft landed safely.

 

 

Broken Wing Panel Seperation

 

 

 

 

Mad Boom Buckle

 

 

 

 

Wing Spar Broken

Edited August 11, 2008 by Typhoid

[gbnavy61 1]

Wowzers. Still, better to have overstressed the hell out of the bird than plant it and take all those aircrew with.

 

The old choice of: if we do nothing we're dead, if we do something we might die anyway, but there's a slight chance we'll make it. I'll take option B as well.

 

Maybe I should check in with some of my P-3 buddies.

 

Any photos out there?

Edited August 11, 2008 by gbnavy61

[toonces 4]

Wow, those guys must have been freaking.

 

There's a few inconsistencies though. Shutting down an engine for a NATOPS check and an FCF are totally different things. It could be that they were going to do an FCF and sign it off 'in flight' then proceed for the NATOPS check.

 

If the engine was shut down during the FCF, then it was probably E-handled and truly shut down. In that case, when they had the problems on #2, depending on the severity, they probably elected to bag #2, then re-start #1. The only cases I can think of where they would bag 2 before restarting 1 would be in the event of an engine fire or a vibrating prop. If I remember correctly, a vibrating prop 'could' mean an impending propeller blade separation and warrants an immediate shut down.

 

Having said all that, if they were shutting down an engine as a precaution, then they should have restarted the loitered engine first. There's probably some factors here we're not seeing yet.

 

Either way, we train for two engine flying so shutting down two engines at the same time on the same side, while not typical, isn't something that in and of itself should be the emergency this turned into. It sounds like they sort of...forgot to fly...during the emergency and once the plane departed, oh boy.

[+Typhoid 231]

Wow, those guys must have been freaking.

 

There's a few inconsistencies though. Shutting down an engine for a NATOPS check and an FCF are totally different things. It could be that they were going to do an FCF and sign it off 'in flight' then proceed for the NATOPS check.

 

If the engine was shut down during the FCF, then it was probably E-handled and truly shut down. In that case, when they had the problems on #2, depending on the severity, they probably elected to bag #2, then re-start #1. The only cases I can think of where they would bag 2 before restarting 1 would be in the event of an engine fire or a vibrating prop. If I remember correctly, a vibrating prop 'could' mean an impending propeller blade separation and warrants an immediate shut down.

 

Having said all that, if they were shutting down an engine as a precaution, then they should have restarted the loitered engine first. There's probably some factors here we're not seeing yet.

 

Either way, we train for two engine flying so shutting down two engines at the same time on the same side, while not typical, isn't something that in and of itself should be the emergency this turned into. It sounds like they sort of...forgot to fly...during the emergency and once the plane departed, oh boy.

 

 

you raise a very good point. A FCF and a NATOPS check are two entirely different evolutions and while they certainly can be combined into a single flight - they are separate profiles and should not be done at the same time!!!

 

I remember some pretty "interesting" FCF's including an uninteded dual engine out (think about what kind of plane I flew....), but this is one that rapidly escalated way out of control in the blink of an ey.

 

you hit the bottom line -

 

"It sounds like they sort of...forgot to fly"

[gbnavy61 1]

you hit the bottom line -

 

"It sounds like they sort of...forgot to fly"

 

On the up-side, they'll probably never forget that again. If they're flying at all anymore.

[+Typhoid 231]

On the up-side, they'll probably never forget that again. If they're flying at all anymore.

 

you've got that right!!

 

I've added some photos to the original post.

[gbnavy61 1]

Thanks.

[toonces 4]

I had an experience once...I don't really talk about it too often but I suppose this thread is about as appropriate place as any for it.

 

I was on a tactical check flight. I was flying the right seat as PPC with a 3P in the left seat and the CO watching. I was totally spanking this 'sub' we were chasing, just totally smothering him in buoys. We were down at 200' and the skipper decided he wanted to get in the left seat so I took the controls and climbed up to 1000' for the seat swap.

 

Usually in a flight like this the guy in the left flies and the guy on the right works the tactical panel in the center console, recentering the display, selecting buoys to watch, etc. Since we were in the middle of the seat swap, I was flying from the right and I had to re-center the display to keep track of what was going on. The Flight Engineer in the seat was talking with the off-duty FE and they were discussing something on the circuit breaker panel behind me, not really looking out the front of the plane. I didn't think anything of it...I considered interrupting them to have the in-seat FE correct the display but I just didn't for some reason.

 

I looked down and started pushing buttons and selecting a buoy to mark on top, the CO is on the left strapping in and fiddling around and all of a sudden I hear...not screaming but a sort of, "Ahhhh!..."

 

Of course I look up and all I see out front of the cockpit is water. See, the P-3 isn't really very stable even trimmed up and while I was looking down the plane just sort of rolled left and nose down. The plane is so big that nobody felt the plane changing attitude. So now I'm passing through...low...extremely nose low with nothing but water in front.

 

So, I just put that yoke in my crotch and I hear from the back, "Whooooaaaa!!!" as I put some G's on the plane. I leveled out...low...and then climbed back up to 1000' for the rest of the seat swap.

 

It's wierd. I've thought about that flight alot after it happened. Ultimately, there was alot of things I should have done differently. I should have told the FE's to focus on the plane during the seat swap. I should have interrupted them to work the center panel. But the bottom line is that everthing was going so well, and I was so focused on kicking the s**t out of that sub that I just sort of...forgot to fly for a few seconds there. If the CO hadn't said something, if the 3P had been going to the head for example...I probably would have put the plane into the water. I wasn't done what I was doing on the panel when I looked up and 10 more seconds would have been it.

 

I continued to fly after this experience. It goes without saying that it was a big learning experience for me. I think, sometimes, you just have to make a big mistake to hammer home the basics once and for all.

 

Wow, I hadn't thought about that flight in a long time.

[gbnavy61 1]

Yeah, I can't recall a specific instance, but I'm sure I've had at least one flight that has left me saying, "If that other SOB wasn't in the second seat, I might not be here to think about it right now." Makes you reflect.

 

Good story.

Edited August 11, 2008 by gbnavy61

[Silverbolt 104]

lol and mine AF brought some old units of it.... God damn't :(

[+Typhoid 231]

I think just about anyone who has ever flown for any length of time has at least one "there but for the grace of God" story.

 

Thanks for that one. Brought back more than a few memories.

[JediMaster 451]

lol and mine AF brought some old units of it.... God damn't :(

 

Well, if they're not overused and undermaintained it shouldn't be a problem. They refurb those things on purchase and make them pretty good.