FMs for Nov 2008 version

[+peter01 2]

This version of FE is looking good. Best Expansion Pack version so far I think, so starting to redo some FMs.

 

But from a point of view of modding FMs, theres really only one phrase to describe the game as it is now: its become quite complex. The original FE was relatively simple by comparison.

 

Pretty well progressed with FMs, but even if all goes well, it'll be a couple of months to finish what I want. And can't promise I'll finish either - the increased complexity together with the fact I have less time.

 

Generally I'm doing FMs slightly different to TKs. Less smooth, less stable. Thats how I prefer them, and they work well for me, but you may need to adjust joystick settings.

 

The FMs are designed only for Hard Flight Model. And FMs done for previous versions won't work properly in this patch. There have been many changes along the way in the game - in FMs, takeoff, AI. You'll save yourself a lot of frustration remembering this.

 

While working on other stuff, thought I'd put a few FMs here on the forum, for feedback, as I may never finish all the addon planes and any that work well with this patch are worth having I guess. These have TKs standard AI. They are not fully tested - as AI, loadouts, takeoffs. The latter has become increasingly fiddily as well - bouncing, pulling to one side, etc.

 

Theres a couple of FMs as variations to TKs existing ones - Albatros Dv, FokkerD7. The Albatros Dv feels similar to TKs Albatros Dva, and has similar performance, but has been done quite differently. The Fokker D7 feels different to TKs Fokker D7F, and is more capable. Addon plane FMs are the Pfalz D3 and Sopwith Dolphin.

 

I chose these particular planes for a few reasons. The Dolphin and Pfalz fit with TKs set, were widely used, and are ones I had considerable trouble with before as FMs, so pretty pleased with them. The Alb Dv and Fokker D7 for you to compare differences to TKs Albatros Dva and FokkerD7F. And more generally, because all these fit reasonably well with TKs in the unmodded standard Nov 2008 game, both as FMs and in using standard AI parameters (I am using different AI parameters, but to use these means all the FMs would need to be changed/tested).

 

Also included is a modded aircraftobject.ini (just some headshake), and gundata files. Gun damage has changed and become more complex as well in this version of the game then before. Aircraftobject.in and gundat files go into the "Objects" folder. If you don't like, just delete and the game will revert to TKs defaults (in a CAT file).

 

Anyway, let me know what you think, good or bad. I'll probably make available some others here on this thread over time.

 

04_01_2009_FMs_for_Nov_2008_Patch.zip

[+whiteknight06604 935]

thanks for the continued FM work,it is very much apreciated.Did you know the A-Team released 2 new WWI betas?the Bristol Scout in 4 varients and a Dh-4.thanks again.

[deep 5]

Peter the Great back in action!

 

WK, thanks for the info on the betas, I did not see those.

[themightysrc 5]

Hi Peter,

 

And a happy new year to you (and everyone else).

 

I must confess, I hadn't even realised there'd been another official update to FE!

 

I think we've discussed this before, by email, and it touches on the information inside the 'getting started' sticky, but may I suggest the following?

 

Now that FE has respawned itself again, would it be a good idea to list out what works with what? In other words, which set up of FE works with which desirable user mods - such as your FMs. I mention this for two reasons: the first is that I've only just downloaded and installed the official April 08 update, and it's changed the game play out of recognition (as far as I can tell), making FE rather more fun and absorbing. The second reason is that some aircraft that I've tried flying before - and which had previously been pretty unsatisfying - have now (seemingly) become more usable and responsive. I'm sure that I'm being deceived by my senses, but that's how it seems to me!

 

Because I didn't get the first FE expansion, I've always been a little wary of downloading extras, so a definitive list of what works with what (if that's feasible) would be of great help to me, and perhaps others too.

 

Thanks,

 

Si

[Southside Bucky 1]

...I've always been a little wary of downloading extras, so a definitive list of what works with what (if that's feasible) would be of great help to me, and perhaps others too.

 

Thanks,

 

Si

 

 

 

I did put together a quick guide to which add-ons work best with which version of the game. However, once the October/November 08 patch was released it became kinda redundant, so I deleted it.

 

Personally, using the FE+EP+Nov08 Patch, what I do now is; drop an add-on plane into the game, test fly it both as AI and as a player plane. If it works to my satisfaction I leave it in, if not, I delete it.

 

It's the only way ATM, I reckon.

 

 

 

Peter.

 

Great to see you back, and working on the game again.

 

Thanks for the latest FM's and GunData files. Excellent improvements! Like yourself, the add-on plane's I'm using in the game now are all contemporary with the stock set. The cut off point for me is circa June 1917. That's to say I don't use any add-on planes in service during 1916 (with the exception of the Pup, which was in service from late '16 till about September '17).

 

Of course, it'll be great if you decide to amend the FM's for all the early planes as well, but I think it's a good idea to concentrate on the mid to late war stuff for now.

 

FWIW, here's a list of the add-on's I'm using which I find work reasonably well using your last FM pack, especially as AI planes:

 

Breguet 14

Bristol F2b

FE2c (which I've renamed; FE2b)

Fokker D.VIII

Hanriot HD1

Junkers D.I

Nieuport 27

Pfalz D.III

Pfalz D.XII

Pfalz Dr.I

SSW D.III

Sopwith Pup

Sopwith Triplane

Sopwith Snipe

Spad XII

[Ronbo 0]

Peter,

Without rehashing the old days of RB3D testing, what do you use as a benchmark in data to tweak the FMs for these crates? Feel,

books, etc? How are they tested? climb rate, turn rate, comparsion to contemporary of the other side? IE, spad vs D7, Dr1 vs camel, etc?

Just curious...

 

Ronbo

[+peter01 2]

Thanks whiteknight, wasn't aware of those. Great to see the Bristol Scout especially. DH4 loks interesting but needs a paint job

 

basically themightysrc, AFAIC Fms only work for the version they were designed for - TKs is making major changes in every patch, especially in the EP. mine in the upload section clearly state which version they work for, and that they only work for that version. I guess everyone just wants them to work for all versions....but they don't.

Edited January 5, 2009 by peter01

[Dagaith 0]

I've tried the new FMs a bit. Overall I think you've done great job again, Peter. But is the Pfalz supposed to be SO hard to turn? It dives and climbs nicely, but the only way I can get it to turn is with full rudder and ailerons and even then it takes ages. Perhaps it reflects the reality, but then the other planes should be a bit harder to turn, too (which would be great for my phlegmatic personality). Or was the difference in turning ability compared to eg Albatros really so big?

[+ojcar 157]

I have read somewhere that Pfalz D III had better turning that Albatros D V (but was slower, exceptingt in a dive)

[+peter01 2]

I've tried the new FMs a bit. Overall I think you've done great job again, Peter. But is the Pfalz supposed to be SO hard to turn? It dives and climbs nicely, but the only way I can get it to turn is with full rudder and ailerons and even then it takes ages. Perhaps it reflects the reality, but then the other planes should be a bit harder to turn, too (which would be great for my phlegmatic personality). Or was the difference in turning ability compared to eg Albatros really so big?

 

Hi Dagaith, thanks for posting and some feedback ... I do appreciate it, people posting about FMs/AI has become rare it seems.

 

But I'm perplexed, the PfalzD3 turns well, about the same as the Albatros D5s, both TKs and mine. It seems about right in capability compared to the others. I fly and fight in it often - because of the Blue Max movie (just purchased it on DVD a few weeks ago).

 

All I can think of is that you do not have the right data.ini in your Pfalzd3 directory?

 

The PfalzD3_data.ini should have a date stamp of 2009, and at the top of the file it should say:

 

// Pfalz D.III

// 3D Model By the A-Team

 

// This is a new and alternative FM version.

// Many thanks to the A-Team for allowing me to

// to develop this modification

 

// FM for Nov 2008 Expansion Pack ONLY

// Ver 1.0 Beta Jan 2009 peter01

// Contact me on forums if questions

// NOT the A-Team or Charles

 

Maybe theres another reason, does anybody else feel the same way as Dagaith?

Edited January 11, 2009 by peter01

[Dagaith 0]

Hehe, silly me!

 

I somehow forgot to copy your new FM to the Pfalz directory indeed :D

It flies nicely now (I like Pfalz too, it's a real beauty contest winner)

 

Thanks, keep up the good work!

[+peter01 2]

Second set of FMs.

 

Alternative FMs to TKs AlbatrosD3 and SE5a, and new FMs for the F2b and PfalzD12 addon planes.

 

11_01_2009_FMs_for_Nov_2008_Patch.zip

[Dagaith 0]

Wow, new FMs already!

 

I tried the Brisfit with the new FM and a strange thing happened. My lower right wing was shot off, but only the middle part of it flew away, the damaged wingtip remained "attached" to the plane! I know, it's not exactly the Flight model problem, but the problem lies in data.ini anyway (I think)...

 

See for yourself

[+peter01 2]

LOL, you were quick trying them out as well, and shot down too!

 

I'd be guessing, but I don't think you can do much about it, except maybe not to detach any part of the wing when the wings are destroyed. Your doing some modelling? May be you or p10ppy would know how to fix, if possible.

 

I remember when the A-Team released it, I think they implied there may be some anomalies ... "not to their usual high standard" or similar were their words.

[Dagaith 0]

Hm, I didn't find anything fishy in the data.ini, everything seems to be ok... Perhaps I just found a rare bug ;)

[Southside Bucky 1]

...people posting about FMs/AI has become rare it seems.

 

 

 

I wouldn't read too much into the lack of feedback Peter, I think people just take it for granted that your FM's are always an improvement, both in terms of flyability and AI aggressiveness.

 

Personally, I've not had a great deal of time for extensive testing, but I have made a few one on one missions flying TK's standard 130hp Camel against the Fokker D.VII, Albatros DV and Pfalz D.III.

 

What I've found is that ATM, with your new FM's, and used as AI, each of those planes now seem to have a smaller turning circle than the Camel, either to the left or right, which as you know, would've been an unlikely occurrence...Especially with the Alb and Pfalz.

 

I was reluctant to make a quick judgement because I thought you may well re-do the Camel FM at a later date and thereby redress the balance, so please just take this as a FYI.

 

Re: Your new Gundata files.

I could be wrong, but it appeared to me that replacing the standard files with your new ones seemed to bring back the "ailerons and elevators flying off with a single bullet hit" problem that was an annoying feature of the game before the Nov08 patch. The new files also seemed to increase the frequency of gun-jams to slightly unrealistic levels IMO, so I went back to using the standard Gundata files.

 

Hope some of this helps a bit...Keep up the great work, man 'cause it's greatly appreciated. :yes:

 

All the best.

 

Bucky

 

EDIT.

Thanks for the new batch too. ...You just uploaded 'em as I was typing the above.

Edited January 11, 2009 by Southside Bucky

[+peter01 2]

Hi Bucky,

 

(This was meant to be a quick post, but ahhh...the main point is the second last paragraph - on rudder).

 

Good points Bucky. Like me you obviously want the right balance in performance differences between planes ... I spend a lot of time trying to do that. Obviously there are various compromises, but generally if that wasn't the case, I wouldn't like the game.

 

I agree with most of what you pointed out.

 

You have sort of indirectly highlighted some issues I'm having; the Oct/Nov 2008 patch has introduced a lot of changes. The FMs, the AI, even gundata stuff is suprisingly quite different to previous versions...better, but more complex. The AI especially is taking me some effort and experimentation to get right.

 

There are other issues too - i will write up something either in this thread or in readme file later.

 

I do the AI differently for my own game. As there is some testing still to do, and because it needs to be done for all the planes, not just a few here and there that I upload, I've stuck to TKs default ones pretty much for these planes. The reason for sticking to default AI: I'm spending a lot of time to get the AI as I want, i'm not doing the same for the ones I'm uploading to fit with TKs planes or TKs AI. So much more testing if I do that, and no point either, in the end!

 

Like always, to get a finely tuned and improved game, you need to changes all the FMs or AI or usually both. I'm not sure how many FMs I'll do - this could be it, or I might do many more. Once I'm finished what I do, whatever it is, I'll mod the AI - either to fit with TKs planes (easily done, but does require a couple of days of testing) or how I think they work best (the ones I'm using) - and put the FMs and other files in the Downloads section rather than on a forum thread.

 

At the moment, they are not finished from an AI perspective (and they still need loadout files, weapons data files etc). Why upload? Well, it could be weeks or months before I finish, depending on how much I do, so thought I'd just make them available. From a FM perspective (as against AI), these are finished, there won't be tweaks or improvements as I usually do over time etc... and thats not because I couldn't be bothered or don't have the time, its because I think they are easily the best I have ever done - all of them. In terms of feel, how they fly, performance differences, roll is much reduced, stress modelling (for Nieuports only works well, done a bit differently to TKs), takeoff (not perfect, but loads better), damage modelling, and stalls (better, but again not always perfect).

 

And the difference in AI capability you pointed out is not so much the difference in the performance of my planes compared to TKs. For example if you fly my Albatros DV its a bit better than TKs Albatros Dva, but only just. But from an AI capability, yes it is better. In other words, my Albatros Dv (for example, its true of all mine) is better performance wise as AI then for the player using TKs standard AI data, something I always avoid and will fix sometime. The reason? See below, last paragraph, on rudder.

 

And, yes, there is a new Camel. And its a bit better than TKs. But only just.

 

Generally TKs planes are too good performance wise in the Expansion Pack, and a question maybe is why make them better, even a little? I'd rather not of course. Theres two reasons I need to.

 

The first relates to the Flight Model. What TK has done in the EP has optimised the model so that planes with a certain turn and roll feel better and are easier to do. Turn is the major factor. Eg, TKs Camel currently turns 360 degrees in a level turn in about 9 secs. If this was 11 secs I think the game would be better. And the AI would be slower, not so hectic, an improvement. But thats the way it is. I could do a Camel that would turn in 11 secs, and feel good, but ONLY JUST....but that leads me to the second point....

 

... performance differences between planes over several years. Of course earlier planes and less capable planes would need to turn slower then the Camel. Again this is limited by the games Flight Model. For example at the moment I have a very nice Nieuport 11 that turns in about 12 sec. It feels pretty nimble too, how it should. Yet its performance compared to later planes couldn't be any better (otherwise it would be too good - there a lot of planes between the N11 and the Camel), and I absolutely can't do a plane that turns in less then 12-13 secs that feels nimble or even feels that good. Thats the Flight Model. People will/do say you can do anything with TKs Flight Model - maybe, but after trying for quite a while, I seriously doubt it, for First eagles anyhow. TK would need to do it in the game engine (which he can BTW), or provide considerably different example FMs to follow - with new tables etc. Or both.

 

Now all this on turn performance may seem much ado about nothing...theres other things like climb and roll. However this game, and maybe ALL ww1 and ww2 flight sims, are limited by turn in other ways too not just from doing nice FMs. Most importantly differences in turn are very important in dogfighting in the game. The AI uses turn mainly, and if you are flying a plane with slightly slower turn then the AI you will lose, and slightly better you will win. The difference can be as small as 1 sec in turn performance in your favour or the AIs to make that difference. So everything has to be very finely tuned between plane FMs and AI to get performance differences over time. Very hard, and heaps of testing.

 

Thankfully in TKs game (not in any other WW1 game AFAIK) this can be modified by tailoring AI data for every plane individually - which is what I do. And try to tailor the AI to the planes best performance attributes eg climb for energy fighters. Sometimes the end result is that the plane is less or more capable for the player then it is for the AI. I try to limit this - just seems a slippery slope to me, but at times I need to do it.

 

And getting back to your point, theres an improvement in the AI in the Oct/Nov 2008 game that makes my FMs seem more capable then TKs for planes with similar turn which is a big improvement by TK to the AI. Its rudder. Mine have better rudder, and the AI now use rudder very well. So my FMs are better as AI with stock AI data. Its easily fixed by modding AI data, to get that parity between AI and player performance flying the same plane.

 

I'll follow this up with another post later on gundata.

Edited January 12, 2009 by peter01

[+peter01 2]

Re-reading the above post by me, its a bit long :), so thought i'd summarise the important points.

 

The first is, yes these FMs of mine as AI are better than TKs with TKs standard AI data parameters, because mine have better rudder, and the AI now uses rudder very effectively, in turns as well.

 

They are also better comparatively performance-wise as AI than they are for the player with standard ai parameters. So their performance as AI needs to be reduced for game play balance, ideally capability should be about the same for player and AI. The AI is easily fixed but does require some testing ... so later.

 

The performance of my FMs in the later period (june 1917 onwards) is generally just very slightly better overall than TKs. Its necessary if you try to cover the period before that - 1915 to june 1917. Some of course are better because I think TK has underdone them eg, Spad13, Se5a, FokkerD7 - there overall performance (climb or dive, not turn) would be as good or better than the Camel for example.

[+peter01 2]

Re: Your new Gundata files.

I could be wrong, but it appeared to me that replacing the standard files with your new ones seemed to bring back the "ailerons and elevators flying off with a single bullet hit" problem that was an annoying feature of the game before the Nov08 patch. The new files also seemed to increase the frequency of gun-jams to slightly unrealistic levels IMO, so I went back to using the standard Gundata files.

 

Its not ideal, and yes, you do have elevators and ailerons being shot off.

 

But gun effectiveness is certainly less with these gundata files. It can take some hits before the player downs a plane. AI is different. Thats with "Hard" Weapons in "Options".

 

TK has made some changes to gun effectiveness, it seems guns are less effective for the player, but the same, ie, more effective comparatively, for the AI. I'm pretty sure the Vickers is also less effective as well compared to the Spandau and Lewis. These changes would be very easy for TK to make in the game code/parameters, not the gundata files, as there are various levels depending on user selectable settings, and the AI is probably different again.

 

All this may be well and good, but it makes changing effectiveness more complex then before.

 

With my new ones, on the one hand its hard for the player to bring down some planes. But at the same time you can knock off bits and pieces, even wings, especially smaller sized planes or wing areas (eg mono planes). I strengthen tails & elevators, the usual suspects, and this works reasonably well for those parts on many planes, but not all.

 

On the other hand, the AI still have very effective guns. Have tried, but can't reduce gun effectiveness via bullet mass more, even by a small amount, as it becomes very difficult for the player to shoot anything down. Doesn't seem to make much difference to the AI. This simple approach worked very well in the past.

 

Thinking that maybe the way to go is to use easier gun settings in "Options", say "Normal" for the player, then reduce the overall gun effectiveness in the gundata files via bullet mass. The aim in this approach is to equalise better the ai and player gun effectiveness, which I think is the main problem, then reduce bullet mass.

 

A WIP I guess. But then again, I just think TK will change it again in the next patch, so whats the use? He does seem to be on a roll with changes.

 

I'm happy with the one I uploaded for the present. I doubt I'll be redoing it for a while.

[+peter01 2]

Good time for me to write a bit about some of the other changes in this patch.

 

Believe me, there has been a swag of changes in the Oct/Nov 2008 patches, but I'll limit it to issues that are affecting what I'm doing, ie, what you may notice. The changes are not in the FMs but how the game interprets the FMs, ie, the game engine.

 

Generally the changes are an improvement, but often have side effects....older FMs work a little differently, something doesn't work as well for earlier plane FMs (ie, lower powered planes), or the changes are something that I haven't yet understood.

 

The AI is a lot different. The AI is better in every way. Posted about rudder above, but theres a lot more. Some ai parameters don't work as before, some don't seem to make any difference anymore, and others that effect the ai now seem internalised (eg, how planes climb to stay in formation). So theres a learning curve involved for me again, and the implication is that there may be some ai problems. Actually, to be more precise, at the moment, there are definitely some occasional ai problems with ones I'm doing (not posted yet).

 

Takeoff has changed. Lots better, easier to lift and less prop torque on the ground. But it also means some of my FMs are a bit jittery before takeoff (tail bouncing a bit whilst stationary, mainly for player), and at times I get a red screen/black screen for a nano second when starting a takeoff. This may be just how I do those FMs, and may be easily solvable, but I haven't worked it out yet. It seems in part a compromise between being able to takeoff nicely and those issues. I don't think its a major issue at all, nor common, and certainly takeoff is far better.

 

Planes do not fly at their top speed. This is true of TKs too. They generally fly at around 5% slower (eg for the same FM in Oct 2007 game versus this current version). It may be a little less or more than 5%, depending on the particular FM. Probably because TK has changed how drag works in the game. Its an improvement to me, the planes feel better. I won't be increasing their speed, partly also as TK may change it in the future so that do fly at rated speed.

 

The planes yaw in level flight mode - this may also be contributing to the speed thing above. They don't fly straight. AI flights may veer off to for all I know. Its due to prop torque (MOI). TK will undoubtely fix this, and I'm not reducing MOI as its an good attribute in TKs flight model. Planes are more bland without or even too little prop torque.

 

Planes can be nose heavy or tail heavy. This is especially true of earlier planes. Its not just in level flight, but even after say diving, then pulling up straight, there may be a tendency to pull down that you need to offset. Not sure why, probably a combination of changes to drag and other things. I generally can improve/reduce this, but its difficult at times, and other times its seems like a "feature" to me - the planes take some more work to fly, more interesting - not bad for earlier planes!

 

SORTA OFF TOPIC: I do wonder how anybody without a lot of experience could do FMs for First Eagles now. And thats experience with FE's FMs, not TK's other games - FE's FMs are harder, more so now. Actually, looking back, FMs for the the original FE were a piece of cake in comparison ... a beginner could do FMs with some effort learning the basics and with trial and error. Not sure about that anymore. Its one reason why I'm posting what I'm doing - I doubt anybody else will do many, if any, for FE.... and thats a shame for the game, and all the great addon planes done by the modellers. The game is certainly improving, but I wonder if the improvements aren't sort of self defeating - from a FM perspective its no longer easily moddable.

[+peter01 2]

A bit of a change in pace.

 

I'll be away for a over a week from thursday, so I thought I'd upload these before then, and if any problems gives you a couple of days to let me know. It is a bit rushed so could be installation problems or things missing.

 

The AI on these are tailored for the planes.

 

You need the A-teams rotary sound, and Gambit's german pilot.

 

The download includes the following:

 

A Readme file - you should read that, known issues, installation, etc. Keep in mind what I wrote above about some issues too, I had to write that before uploading these FMs.

 

Pilot bmps to convert TKs newer pilot to old ones. Its for people without the Expansion Pack (but November patch). These are all addon planes.

 

Files in a Weapons directory and other directories - for p10ppy's Le Prieur rockets as well as other weapons needed for loadouts.

 

Gundata files - you must use these.

 

As well as FMs, there are loadout files for each plane.

 

01_12_2009_FMs_for_Nov_2008_Patch.zip

 

Edit: Ahh, forgot the most important bit, they are 1916 plane FMs.

Edited January 12, 2009 by peter01

[Dagaith 0]

Wow, thanks! I just love the 1916 era!

 

As you said, the AI indeed uses more rudder now. But sometimes it seems that AI is using a bit too much rudder? I don't know, I just see much more strangely floating airplanes in dogfights. But then again, their manoeuvres are therefore less anticipated... So perhaps it's a good thing! It's just unusual to see.

[Dagaith 0]

Oh, and I noticed one thing flying Fok E.III: I stalled (wanted to make Immelmann turn. You know, the original one with stalling the plane not the roll-off-the-top manoeuvre), but quite weirdly - the plane was insanely vibrating while it was falling down vertically (that is, the bottom of my plane was pointing towards the land not the nose). I did recover from it, though, quite nicely when I pointed the nose down and played with rudder a bit. But it was weird.

 

Yet, you've done fantastic work again :)

Thank you!

[+peter01 2]

Hi Dagaith,

 

Yeah, I need to fix that, but won't be for a while ...

 

Its pointed out in the Readme as an issue.

[deep 5]

Hi Peter01,

 

I just want to say a big THANK YOU for everything you have done for the FE flight models. Speaking personally, I feel totally out of my depth (!) in offering feedback on the individual aircraft models. Suffice is to say that they all feel different and I can only imagine the courage of the men who actually flew and put their life on the line in these "experiments".

 

One thing is clear to me at least. I cannot fly without a joystick or TrackIR in any sim, and without rudder pedals in FE!

 

Thanks again!

deep.