"Hunting fun factor" or long lasting pilot ?

[Olham 164]

 

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Joined: 8-March 09

From: Berlin

Member No.: 46,143

 

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This was posted in another thread, so you may have seen it before. But I think, it's worth an own topic.

 

This simulation is so realistic now, I really have to struggle hard. And I get my nose punched many times!

But I say to myself:

when you think of the many flight hours of Ernst Udet (one of the few aces, that survived 3 years of this hell),

then his kill tally doesn't say, that he had a kill on each sortie.

He had collected kills from March 1916 until September 1918 (I think). So lets say: within some 900 days.

Now, even if we take off 300 days for furlough and bad weather (which is far more than he really had a rest, I'm sure),

we have roundly 600 flying days. They often made 2 or 3 flights a day, so let's only add 300 again, and we have 900 sorties.

That would make (round) 60 victories in 900 flights. And that makes 1 air combat victory in 15 sorties.

 

What I'm trying to say, is, that we got a very realistic simulation here, and when we want to survive longer, and collect more

kills, we may have to be far more careful. More defensive thinking. Leave situations, that develop too risky.

 

We must decide, if we play for the "hunting/killing fun factor" (as I mostly do so far) - or for a longer lasting, kill collecting pilot,

who might even survive the war, with a good looking total kill tally.

No easy choice, eyh?

[zoomzoom 2]

I think you are right Olham. This sim has become so finely tweaked now that it really does give you the same difficult decisions faced by the real aviators....of course without your neck really being on the line. When you are flying now though, and you see a squad, or squads approaching from different directions, you really do get that same sense of decision making trepidation and hesitation that I'm sure they felt,(only thiers was surely maginified 100 fold) and you realize, my pilots life will depend on the decisions I make right now, and how I approach and "read" this situation. And also the lives of my Squad or Jasta mates as well. Truly Epic.

 

ZZ.

[Olham 164]

Just had this idea:

 

Create one pilot for the serious, long lasting campaign. Call him "Ernst" in German or "Ernest" in English, and you'll know,

this is your "serious" man, to be careful with.

 

And when you had enough reality of the lasting kind, you can still pick another poor chap, and get him toasted instead.

[Dej 17]

Boelcke,

Mannock,

Richthofen.

 

(or Ossy, Mick and Manny as I like to call them )

 

They were there. They made the rules. They wrote them down for us.

 

All we have to do is follow them... to the letter, now, so realistic has this sim become.

[Creaghorn 10]

that is exactly what i am talking about when saying that 300 flying hours with 3 kills is more realistic than 30 hours with 20 kills. because you know this is a game, you will allways enter a fight here and there, wich you probably would not if you would know you might lose your life. i am trying to survive as long as i can and the kill tally doesn't interest me too much. so i'm trying to live for another day and only attack when knowing i'm going to win. sometimes it happens you end in a furball without a choice but fight for your life. but that shouldn't happen too often if you are careful. if my flight ist outnumbered or if i can't get a result in the first minutes of a fight, i'm trying to shake some dust. of course sometimes it happens you start with an advantage, attack and end up with a superior aircraft or better pilot behind you, but that's how it goes and how it went. if you run into a skilled opponent you should notice it right in the beginning and beat him early or run away. my best pilot so far had about 38 hours with about 6 kills which i am quite proud of. when having a new pilot and taking him seriously i only think about surviving the next day. nothing else.

of course you had the best of the best who were aggressive, skilled AND survived quite long. but that's because they were the allstars in the WW1 show.

if about MvR is said he was a mediocre pilot, that's because he "himself" considered beeing a mediocre pilot. he himself is the source of that. but though he himself conisdered beeing a mediocre pilot, he was surely one of the top 5 flyers in WW1 who was not catchable and who outmanouvred everybody. he just didn't like loopings and the acrobatic stuff, which he said is only for the audiences on the ground, but he was efficient in attacking. that's like ozzie smith saying about himself beeing a mediocre fielder :-).

[Bullethead 12]

We must decide, if we play for the "hunting/killing fun factor" (as I mostly do so far) - or for a longer lasting, kill collecting pilot,

who might even survive the war, with a good looking total kill tally.

No easy choice, eyh?

 

To me, the "fun factor" of a game depends on the game itself. IOW, I get a high "fun factor" out of different things in different games. I greatly enjoy both killing lots of enemies and surviving for a long time, but I find that some games are more appropriate venues than others for each type of "fun factor".

 

If I want to kill lots of enemies and don't care much about personal survival (as long as I kill more than I die), then I fly an MMO like Aces High. To be honest, I don't feel that much triumph when I shoot down an AI plane, no matter how good the AI is. Sure, it's enjoyable, but to me the real fun of shooting down a plane comes from scarring the psyche of my opponent. I want to CRUSH the ego of my opponent. I want to shoot him down over and over until he logs off in disgust, hopefully throwing his joystick against the wall, and then curses me out on the game's forum afterwards. If he was alive today, Ghengis Khan would say, "that is best in life". And this can only be accomplished by playing against other humans.

 

However, MP games lack immersion. It's just a mindless deathmatch. That's a lot of fun in its way, but I have varied tastes when it comes to fun. I want immersion, too. And that's only possible with an RPG.

 

I consider OFF to be an RPG, but instead of playing some godlike superhuman whose job is to lay waste to an entire continent of nasties, I'm playing as an everyman. The lot of an everyman in war is to get up every morning and go face the bullets yet again, despite his sense of dread. That's plenty heroic by itself, but it goes unnoticed because that's just his basic job description. His goal is merely to survive and go home eventually. So that's the way I always approach OFF.

 

I play OFF with the goal of not only living for a respectable amount of time, but keeping as many of my AI squaddies alive as possible. If I knock down a few enemy planes along the way, that's a plus. But really, I don't have to fire a single shot to obtain a very high "fun factor" in OFF. For me, it's fun just to do my little bit in the Great War. It's hard enough to survive very long as it is, so I don't go looking for extra trouble. It really pains me when one of my long-time AI compadres buys it. After a while, if I live long enough, I don't even bother writing down the names of the FNG replacements when they join the squadron, because I don't want to get to know them and then have them die on me. Now THAT'S immersion :)

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Yes, I think the latest instalment of OFF really has taken WW1 aviation to it's zenith, and as Bullethead has said, it has almost become an RPG (certainly in Campaign mode)

Whilst I like QC, I find myself playing it less and less, as I get more immersed in Campaign.

 

I am not famous for my patience, and the likes of IL2 /CFS and others, never kept my interest in their campaigns for long....I generally just popped in and out when I fancied shooting at something...but OFF has slowly wrapped itself around me, and is a comfortable mix of historical accuracy, excitement and fun (rather like a good book, that makes itself difficult to put down, as you have no real knowledge of what will happen next!)

 

The other thing about 'games' per se, is that there is a start, middle and end!...once you have played them all the way through, that's about it!

 

OFF is wonderful, as there is really...only a start!...it never really ends....it just keeps on rolling along!

 

One thing is for sure though....other WW1 sims may come and go, but what Doom was for PC's and Manic Miner was for the Spectrum..OFF (imho) will be talked about by it's fans for years to come, as the WW1 flying simulator

 

A real legacy for it's developers and Aces!

Edited March 10, 2009 by UK_Widowmaker

[Olham 164]

Bullethead: It really pains me when one of my long-time AI compadres buys it.

 

Yes, I know, what you mean. I changed my tactics for that reason. I mark a target and order "attack", but don't dive with them

immediately. I check from higher up, who gets into trouble, and then shoot the enemy off his tail. After that, I climb back to my

"watchtower level" and so on. It worked good so far - no losses since!

 

Widowmaker: OFF (imho) will be talked about by it's fans for years to come, as the WW1 flying simulator.

A real legacy for it's developers and Aces!

 

Absolutely: ditto!

And even when we complain from time to time, due to frustrating flights, we may have to accept: we're not good enough yet.

And this sim can teach you to get better!

[zoomzoom 2]

Its also nice, when you are in a really tight spot, to see one of your free squad mates come to your rescue and shoot the pursuer off of your tail. That suprised me in a fight not too long ago, and I hadn't even hit the "H" rescue me key! All of a sudden, rat-a-tat-a-tat, and off the nasty bugger spins!! You gotta love it....totally unexpected!

 

 

 

ZZ.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Its also nice, when you are in a really tight spot, to see one of your free squad mates come to your rescue and shoot the pursuer off of your tail. That suprised me in a fight not too long ago, and I hadn't even hit the "H" rescue me key! All of a sudden, rat-a-tat-a-tat, and off the nasty bugger spins!! You gotta love it....totally unexpected!

 

 

 

ZZ.

 

I trust you will return the favour?

[Geier 0]

I had a pilot with Jasta 5, my longest career with 16.5 hours (it was actually more like 19, some weird time bug happened on two occasions). Started early March, flew ca 20 missions, at least 16 of those with my fellow musketeers. Richter, Grabenhoff and Huber. Richter had 8 kills with two claims lodged since forever, Grabenhoff also 8, Huber and me 6 with two claims. I was always disgruntled when Huber or Grabenhoff got replaced by some other guy. Then along came 1.26 and without testing or warming up I took off in Campaign and everything went splendidly, I rtb without problems. Next mission is a railyard attack so I advance time. Got a message: Richter killed, Grabenhoff missing. By die-roll I assume. I decided it was time to do that complete reinstall I had planned for some time and scrap that career along with it.

[Bullethead 12]

It worked good so far - no losses since!

 

I try to fly that way, too, but usually the enemy swoops us, not the other way around. When this happens, I try to dodge their 1st pass while maintaining altitude. If I'm lucky, then everybody on both sides quickly ends up below me and I can play guardian sniper. However, most often some bastid has it in for me so I have to deal with him first. Assuming I live through that, usually a fair amount of time has passed. It's then often hard to see where my lads have got to, assuming they're still alive, and I might be too damaged to do them any good.

 

As a result, it's fairly likely that whenever my flight sorties, somebody won't be coming back. I'm in the habit of pausing the game on the runway and looking around at everybody with labels on, trying to guess whose chair will be empty at the mess tonight. I pretend I'm making a bet with my mechanic, who's lying beside me on the wing root as I turn into the wind....

[Rickitycrate 10]

I like this thread as I learn I am not alone in my situation. Sometimes I have a great DiD careers started and ready to report to Siggi's board and I say to myself "just one more flight before bed". I do know better than to tempt fate. Of course I die in that "one more flight". All those unconfirmed claims and the flight time, gone. Sad.... and I lost my good wingman somehow between the base I had to put down at and our home field. I was shocked to see him KIA and this after I indicated he was witness for my last claim. I don't look for fairness in this sim as there was no fairness in the war. I wonder if that is not just true about daily life. Thanks you guys for sharing and I do think this sim has become truely great and something very special.

[Bullethead 12]

I don't look for fairness in this sim as there was no fairness in the war. I wonder if that is not just true about daily life.

 

Nope, daily life ain't fair. In fact, for the large majority of the world's population, life completely sucks 24/7, whether there's a war on or not. Bad things happen to everybody routinely, so if you subscribe to the belief that most people are inherently good, then bad things happen way more often to good people than bad people.

[Dej 17]

It really pains me when one of my long-time AI compadres buys it. After a while, if I live long enough, I don't even bother writing down the names of the FNG replacements when they join the squadron, because I don't want to get to know them and then have them die on me. Now THAT'S immersion :)

 

Geier has a thread asking who is your highest scoring (non-historic) squadron member. Reading that and the above is quite poignant as No. 56's highest scoring non-historic was my long term wingie Jem Spillsby, who died four days ago. KIFA, I figure, as we were in Blighty at the time and the weather was dire.

 

Jem had 9, second highest in the squadron. He should have had ten as he so seriously damaged my second kill that I only needed 50 rounds to put the Hun down.

 

Jem Spillsby, Drew Palmer and Ollie Tepes had been my wingman since I joined No. 56 in April '17. They'd flown 25+ missions with me and God knows how many others while I languished in a hospital bed. Now only Ollie's left. Drew Palmer died on the same day as Jem, probably in the same accident.

 

I am genuinely sad.

 

Jem and Drew, you were grand chaps to fly with, AI or not.

 

This game gets to you.

[Blackdogkt 0]

Nice thread this one. Makes me all the more impatient. I'm waiting for my new PC to arrive before the end of the week (brand spanking new Intel i7, Ati 4870 with 1Gig of video ram and 3GB of tripple channel DDR3 ram should serve me quite well for the next couple of years), and CFS3 should be delivered in the next couple of days, then it's time to place an order for OFF.

 

Regarding the way to fly realistically, you are still doing it even if you are reckless because this is a WWI sim. Remember there were people like Albert Ball in WWI

 

As for Richthofen, he was more like his successor, Erich Hartman. Pilots like those don't necessarily have to be that hot with a stick and they don't always need the best aircraft to have results. They scored high simply because they behaved like hunters, they knew how to stalk their prey and they were good marksmen, so they required only a brief attack to bring down a victim. I think Richthofen said it himself when comparing his and his brother's styles. "I am a hunter. My brother, Lothar, is a butcher." It's a testament to the influence of random factors (known also as luck) that the careful one didn't survive the war and the reckless one did.

 

However, we could say that Richthofen probably made a fundamental mistake on his last flight. All accounts of the fight point to a simple conclusion, he got target fixated. I doubt he was unfamiliar with the terrain he was operating over, so why else would he be flying so close to enemy positions? It's not like WWI was a fluid battlefield on the ground anyway, lines were pretty much fixed. So, i'd venture a guess and say he was so eager to get that one more kill, that even with another Camel on his tail he didn't try to disengage. Instead, he pressed on and ended flying close to those enemy machine gunners at low altitude, with an aircraft that's slower than the opposition.

 

No matter how much better your crate climbs, if the enemy has a comparable aircraft and hits you with a ton of energy you can't really avoid being at a disadvantage. A faster plane all around will disengage at will, a plane that turns and climbs better (like the Dr.1) needs first to take evasive action and then climb once the enemy's firing solution has been spoiled. However, if the enemy is using boom and zoom tactics it will be quite a few firing passes before you achieve energy parity. In the end, people are still undecided over who really shot him down (Roy Brown or the machine gunners), but the fact is that he put himself in a condition where he had not one, but numerous serious disadvantages to content with (over enemy lines, low and slow with 2 enemies close to him)

[Bullethead 12]

Jem and Drew, you were grand chaps to fly with, AI or not.

 

We nae will see their like ag'in

Deserted now each heighland glen

An' lonely cairns are o'er the men

Who died for Royal Charlie

 

To virtual friends not present! :drinks_drunk:

[zoomzoom 2]

We nae will see their like ag'in

Deserted now each heighland glen

An' lonely cairns are o'er the men

Who died for Royal Charlie

 

To virtual friends not present! :drinks_drunk:

 

 

That would-nae be referring to Bonnie Prince Charlie? Would it?

 

 

And of course I try to return the favour W.U.K. I start returning it first by trying not to get them (my squad/Jasta)into a fight we cant win!!!! :yes:

 

ZZ.

 

One of the worst feelings is seeing one of your mates being pursued, tracers smacking his crate, and you being too far away to do anything, and flying full tilt to get there to shake the bugger loose, and hoping you are not too late. Sometimes you make it....sometimes you dont. This is another testimony to OFF's accuracy though,as I was reading a passage from "Winged Warfare" last night and he describes the exact same scenario,...and sometimes getting to his mates in time to help...and sometimes watching helplessly as they spin flaming down. This game is spot on!

Edited March 11, 2009 by zoomzoom

[Interlocutor 0]

Is OFF3 actually keeping track of our AI wingmen's in-game scores and such? I hadn't realized that.

 

Maybe I've been imagining it, but I think I've seen my wingmen shot down, only to be back with me on the next flight?

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Wonderful thread, wonderful comments, wonderful sim! I would like to echo a few remarks already made here, as I too have become very engaged in the campaign aspects of OFF. I flew QC for a while just to get the feel of it, but in short order began my first campaign, (and promptly died). I am learning what you all have stated here; that this sim recreates in nearly every aspect, what it was like to fly as a Great War combat pilot. I am trying my best to "survive" the war while still performing my duty, and THAT in and of itself is a neat trick. Currently I am flying the SE5 with 56 Squadron. We began in Blighty flying cap over London proper as well as Sussex, Surrey and Kent, after which we moved across the channel to France. Despite trying to fly smart and not take any unnecessary chances, on my first mission over the mud I had to dive into a swarm of DIII's to rescue my wingman who had attracted two onto his six. I ended up shooting down three EA and managed to survive the experience, (full props BTW to the OFF team for the latest update as I watched the lower wing fold at the root on the first Alb I blasted). I did have to set down at a frontline airfield due to my controls being damaged in the fray, and what a white knuckle landing it was too.

 

It is quite amazing how quickly you become invested in both your virtual squadmates and self in this sim.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[zoomzoom 2]

Yeah, I think it keeps track of thier kills, but as far as the pilots in your wing being downed and showing up anyway....not sure why that happens...but it does. I heard someone explain it by the fact that even though they crash they aren't necessarily dead, so they are recycled. Not really sure though.

 

ZZ.

[Olham 164]

Zoomzoom, I saw one of my wingies go down over the enemy side od the mud; he made an emergency landing;

something with the engine, I thought. When I had flown on and he had become a white spec on the "radar", I marked

the spec, and switched F4, 'till I saw him. Although he couldn't fly anymore, he was now motoring on, determined to

reach our side of the lines. Perhaps an explanation... (Lol!)

 

This thread became a very good one through you all, and many of you I'd like to have there with me in a fight as my wingmen.

[zoomzoom 2]

"This thread became a very good one through you all, and many of you I'd like to have there with me in a fight as my wingmen. "

 

Ditto my friend, ditto. One day if I can ever get a better machine, AND higher speed internet, I'd love to take you up on it.

 

 

 

ZZ.

[Interlocutor 0]

Yes, I certainly agree with all that's been said above about the immersive aspects of the campaign, and about the strange sense of caring for one's virtual wingmen :yes: .

 

For my part, I'm well into a LafEsc campaign now, flying N11's over Verdun in May of 1916. My AI wingies can now fly the N11 well (thanks, Winder et al for the AI N11 1.26 fix!). I always lead my flights, and my evolving practice is to "stay high" when a dogfight first develops. Given that AI enemy a/c tend to dive for the deck right away, I can watch over my wingies below in the first stages of a fight, then come down to help as needed.

 

Is anyone else noticing that an improvement in their own flying skills as time goes on? In the old RB3D days, with the POV hat views I could never stay alive long, nor achieve many kills. Here, with TIR, I feel that my SA is growing by leaps & bounds. When I first started flying OFF3 with TIR a month ago, I always kept the TAC screen up, and used the enemy cone, otherwise I had trouble staying alive. Now I've stopped using the enemy cone at all, and I use TAC only to locate enemy formations so I can fly toward them, taking it down when I get in a scrap. And I think that soon I may stop using it at all.

 

Reading Shaw's Fighter Combat, as recommended by many in the forum, has helped as well, though I find that with these low-powered aircraft, particularly the earlier ones like the N11, many of Shaw's options are closed to me. But boy, the N11 is a great little turn fighter ...

[Rickitycrate 10]

Interlocutor, I love the "bebe" it's so maneuverable. I find I can easily control the throttle to better get into position along with throwing her about. My only regret is the low amount of ammo she carries. My skills are improving but I do find that I am inconsistent. Heavy or ham fisted, not looking around enough etc. one day and another day doing all the right things. The need for trackir is obvious as there are so many blind spots without it. I look forward to a new experience once I can head-track. I've been flying DiD without it and it is huge challenge.