Rudder advice requested from the REAL pilots

[Olham 164]

I bought SAITKEK flight pedals recently, but found, that some manoeuvers were much different to the

flying with my yaw stick. An Albatros - not being the most agile plane - is very hard to fly with them

in tight turning combat, and I stall crashed so often, that I threw the pedals in a corner. For a while.

But I'm not one, who gives up easy on something (or ...one) he loves.

 

To Womenfly2 and Duck and the other pilots round here:

how is rudder to be used in tight turning? And which amounts of?

(I think I always pushed it to the limits).

[Womenfly2 0]

On older planes without differential ailerons, you need to lead into the turn with rudder as you feed in aileron to compensate for the adverse yaw do to the aileron drag.

 

Here is a good read: Differential ailerons

 

Also a good book to read is: Stick and Rudder: An Explanation of the Art of Flying by Wolfgang Langewiesche.

 

So get the rudder pedals out again and try to lead with the rudder into the turn at the same time adding in the same amount of aileron until you have established your bank. You will also note that the rudder will be used to keep the nose of the plane level with the horizon in the turn, it has now becomes an elevator. You then need to back-off the rudder as you come out of the turn to level flight with the same coordination in reverse as you went into it.

 

Keep trying, you will get it.

 

Cheers,

WF2

Edited March 28, 2009 by Womenfly2

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Womenfly2 wrote:

Also a good book to read is: Stick and Rudder: An Explanation of the Art of Flying by Wolfgang Langewiesche.

 

An outstanding and very educational book. The first one I read when I began to consider flying. Very well-written and easy to understand, and should be in every potential pilot's library.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[Todt Von Oben 0]

Womenfly2 wrote:

 

An outstanding and very educational book. The first one I read when I began to consider flying. Very well-written and easy to understand, and should be in every potential pilot's library.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

Ditto S&R. It's the long-established dicta on the subject of how to stay "on the ball".

 

But I sense your question has more to do with rudder inputs during combat maneuvers. Personally, I find the Albatros (especially the D-III) to be quite nimble. It's all in the control applications.

 

In a tail-chase, I maneuver at full power in an extremely steep bank angle. In this regime the contols swap purposes: the ELEVATOR becomes the rudder and provides huge amounts of control in tightening the turn. The RUDDER (top rudder) is used to keep the nose up.

 

For example: after using normal control inputs to establish a steep right turn, left rudder is applied to keep the nose up, while the rate and radius of turn are dependent primarily on elevator back-pressure. (In a left turn, use the opposite inputs.)

 

Here's an example of a Tros versus a Nieuport.

 

This is in QC: meeting in the merge at 5,000 feet. I've allowed the Nieuport to pass me and gain the advantage. Then I establish a steep right turn with reversed rudder / elevator inputs as described above. Here's how it looks from the pilot's seat:

 

Here's a view of the same moment showing my plane from behind so you can see the elevator and rudder input:

 

And again from above for a better look at the rudder angle. This is about half of the twist stick in top rudder.

 

A view to the rear at that same moment shows the advantaged position I've allowed the Nieuport to gain. Now I'm going to out-turn him.

 

In only a few seconds, by controlling altitude with the rudder, and adjusting the rate and radius of turn with the elevator, I've out-turned him and am bringing my guns to bear. The AI Ace pilot has either lost his altitude authority in the turn, or is deliberately seeking to escape by entering a dive. I followed him and went to guns, scoring hits on his aircraft in this same descending right turn a few moments later.

 

He rolled left as we maneuvered; I continued to follow him down as his aircraft entered an inverted spin from which he never recovered.

 

Impact.

 

I've used these methods in real aircraft simulating dogfights (with the radio replacing the guns) and also in sim with a twiststick. I've yet to buy rudder pedals, but if they work as they should, I see no reason why these same principles won't apply.

 

Fly it that way and we might be surprised how many AI aircraft we once thought we couldn't turn with, soon find themselves within our sights. :yes:

 

Prost!

 

TvO

 

P.S. I have no idea why that extra screen shot shows up below. It's not in my panel and I don't know how to delete it. Please disregard.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Todt Von Oben

[Todt Von Oben 0]

An Albatros - not being the most agile plane - is very hard to fly with them

in tight turning combat, and I stall crashed so often, that I threw the pedals in a corner...how is rudder to be used in tight turning? And which amounts of?

(I think I always pushed it to the limits).

 

Olham,

 

To what I wrote above, let me add:

 

The rudder inputs vary with aircraft. In a D-VII, I can pretty much crank in full top rudder and the plane doesn't mind at all. With the Albatros D-III, it is very easy to add too much top rudder, and that can cause me to lose altitude control. Exerimenting with the twist-stick, I find I only need about 1/2 top rudder with the 'Tros.

 

Flying is a continual process of responding to ever-changing circumstances. Moment to moment, there is a definite balance between the amount of rudder and elevator applied in any given tight turning situation that requires constant adjustment as the turn progresses. That's something we must be able to sense and adjust instinctively in all aspects of the maneuver. It comes with practice.

 

Hope this helps to answer your question.

 

Prost!

 

TvO

Edited March 28, 2009 by Todt Von Oben

[Olham 164]

Thanks, all.

I have always done it as you describe, Todt vonOben, and was pretty good on the Albatros,

with a twist-stick. But when I did the same with pedals, I always "smeared away" sideways

and could not regain control until the crash.

Maybe, it's a question of finer feeling, less rudder on the Alb. I'll try.

[Aussie Pilot 0]

When i first installed my Saitech rudder pedals the cfs3 engine recognises the new install and not only adds the rudder to your pedals but also adds ailerons to one toe break and the elevator to the other toe break. I posted about this back at SoH but i guess that lost now.

I thought it was weird when first flew with them. I have my pilots licence as well but never got these responses from the rudder in the planes i learnt to fly in.

 

Go to outside veiw while on the runway and use your toe breaks and check what happens to your elevator etc.

 

In the end i went into the mine.xml file and deleted the commands that were doing this under the pedals section.

 

Could this be your problem or have you done this already.

 

You may also want to delete the rudder command away from your stick otherwise you'll be forever fighting it with your pedals.

Edited March 29, 2009 by Aussie Pilot

[Olham 164]

Aussie pilot: Could this be your problem or have you done this already.

 

Didn't even know that! Thank you, Aussie, will check and change that.

[Todt Von Oben 0]

Thanks, all.

I have always done it as you describe, Todt vonOben, and was pretty good on the Albatros,

with a twist-stick. But when I did the same with pedals, I always "smeared away" sideways

and could not regain control until the crash.

Maybe, it's a question of finer feeling, less rudder on the Alb. I'll try.

 

Olham,

 

Not surprised that you've been doing it this way all along. I think most of us do. Just felt like documenting it for posterity.

 

And I believe you are absolutely right about what makes us "smear away" sideways in the Albatros, and the way to correct it. The exact same thing happens to me if I use too much rudder in that plane.

 

Sure makes getting into the D-VII a joy! That beautiful birdie makes even hacks like myself feel like Ernst Udet.

[Olham 164]

Well, the Dr.1 and the D VII are probably the most dangerous birds round here.

But about the D VII, wouldn't say "beautiful" - she's rather edgy and bulky like

a box. But if I had to put a Jasta together, I would choose a mix of these two!

(Sorry, my Lady Albatros - you are off course the most beautiful!)

[Todt Von Oben 0]

Well, the Dr.1 and the D VII are probably the most dangerous birds round here.

But about the D VII, wouldn't say "beautiful" - she's rather edgy and bulky like

a box. But if I had to put a Jasta together, I would choose a mix of these two!

(Sorry, my Lady Albatros - you are off course the most beautiful!)

 

About the D-VII: agreed. Maybe not beautiful in appearance, but she flies beautifully.

[Womenfly2 0]

Just a quick note, and it may upsetting to certain people but, the basic FM in general in no way is close to the actual aircraft. They are as good for now as a sim can get.

 

Unless you have flown one, you are only assuming. So do the best you can with them, they react very differently.

 

WF2

[Todt Von Oben 0]

Well, the Dr.1 and the D VII are probably the most dangerous birds round here.

 

Olham,

 

I totally agree. The Dr.1 and D VII are my two favorites, even though the majority of my campaign kills in RB, RBII, RB3D, and OFF have been scored in an Albatros. The Albatros is a dependable mount, but the Dr.1 and D VII have "special characteristics" that make them a bit more fun to fly and fight in.

 

Prost!

 

TvO

Edited March 29, 2009 by Todt Von Oben

[Olham 164]

May I make this serious suggestion to the devels:

Could and would you get in touch with WomenFly2 and other pilots, who have flown specific aircraft,

which also appear in BHaH - for the exchange of information about their characteristics?

Wouldn't this be a great expanding of the models. At least for future versions?

 

I just assumed freshly, that you would exchange your knowledge with the team, WomenFly2, Todt von oben

and other pilots, and you would - wouldn't you?

Edited March 29, 2009 by Olham

[RAF_Louvert 101]

I believe the developers of this WW1 flight sim, (and other such sims), have and continue to work towards getting it "right". But then these are sims, and by their very nature will never be able to give you the same feel that actual flying does. I know the UL's I've flown, while having the same basic three-axis controls as the sims, don't "feel" anything like them. Plus, until you can fully integrate the "Oh my God, I'm gonna die now!" element that can creep into a hinky landing or a sudden and unexpected change in flight parameters whilst you are airbourne, it's never really going to be the same. I mean, I have yet to see anyone NOT get up and walk away from the computer after corkscrewing themselves into the dirt from 1'000+ feet up.

 

That being said, OFF is still an outstanding WW1 flight sim.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[Siggi 10]

As long as the a/c are reasonably close to RL AND consistent amongst each other within their own alternate-reality world, personally I'm content. The fact we can't physically feel them while flying pretty much makes 100% FM accuracy a moot point in my opinion.

[Mr. Lucky 0]

WF2 is right, there are many elements of flying that can't be replicated in a sim such as tactile response (feel). I use light plane techniques in this sim and they serve me well, especially on landing. One other point that needs to be mentioned is too much rudder at low speed can throw you into a spin esp. on finless aircraft like Nieuports and Fokkers. Also to echo WF2, Stick and Rudder is an excellent book.

[Aussie Pilot 0]

Hey Olham, did you get your pedals sorted out in the end or were they set up ok anyway?

[Windchill 0]

Olham,

 

One thing to be aware of in a near vertical turn with "up" rudder as discussed: This is what rl pilots call "cross controlling" the aircraft (in the pictoral example - right aileron with left rudder). This condition can and will lead to wicked stall / spin situations that happen un-nervingly fast. Make sure if the a/c is cross controlled that you keep your speed way up, away from a potential stall.

 

Cross controlling the general aviation a/c I fly is something we are warned not to do anywhere near the ground. It can really ruin a good day!

 

Cheers!

[Olham 164]

Thank you all!

I have dug out the rudders again, and tried them on a plane, that's more forgiving, than the Albatros.

I made two QC scrambles in a Fokker Dr.1, attacked by S.E.5a.

Although the Dr.1 started with disadvantage, it was quickly above the attackers, and appeared to be

incredibly agile with use of pedals. I could even almost do "impossible" things; like 180° turns with

no more than a 30° bank.

Only aiming and shooting will take some new learning now in combination with this new rudder.

But I could already down two planes in each scramble. So that looks promising.

Thanks again.

[Creaghorn 10]

Thank you all!

I have dug out the rudders again, and tried them on a plane, that's more forgiving, than the Albatros.

I made two QC scrambles in a Fokker Dr.1, attacked by S.E.5a.

Although the Dr.1 started with disadvantage, it was quickly above the attackers, and appeared to be

incredibly agile with use of pedals. I could even almost do "impossible" things; like 180° turns with

no more than a 30° bank.

Only aiming and shooting will take some new learning now in combination with this new rudder.

But I could already down two planes in each scramble. So that looks promising.

Thanks again.

 

glad you're using your pedals now. i couldn't imagine to fly without anymore. in some things it's easier with pedals, in some things it's harder, like aiming. it's so much easier to adjust your guns with slightly moving your hand on the stick, than doing the same with your feet. the same in wild manouvers. at least for me it's more difficult to move your stick with your hand and operating rudder with your feet at the same time. took some practice, but it's by far more realistic than only having to move your hand half an inch. what i like most are windy starts and windy landings.

please olham, never put your pedals aside anymore. if you got them, use them. if it's hard, practice. it's ok if you feel like a rookie the first flights. the same as it was in real. you won't ever regret. that's adding a very very big portion of realism, and IMHO you are honoring the sim, and the aircraft you fly. especially our both dearest lady, the alb.

 

creaghorn

[Dimus 0]

I came late into this thread Olham. I assume that you followed Aussie's advice and checked the "mine" file to see that the rudders are not assigned to anything other that yaw control. This is was my issue when I first used the Saiteks. I agree with Creaghorn, it is much harder to aim with your feet, but the general handling is much more realistic with the pedals. It takes practice to coordinate your moves but you'll get there fast. Comparing with real life feel I have come to the conclusion that it is best to have the friction adjustment of the Saiteks at the tightest level.

 

Enjoy your new toy.