MvR Triplane Artifacts

[RCAF_Dudley 0]

Hi,

I recently had the opportunity to visit the Royal Canadian Military Institute (RCMI), which is on University Ave. in Toronto. The RCMI displays many items from Canada's notable military history. In the their aviation section, is a display case showing remnants from Manfred von Richthofen's Fokker DR1 Triplane. I took the following photos of these items as I thought they might be of interest.

 

I've also included the descriptive text that is next to these items in the display.

 

The display case in the RMCI:

 

Hmmm... sorry - having problems uploading the photos - I'll have to try again.

Edited May 31, 2009 by RCAF_Dudley

[RCAF_Dudley 0]

Sorry - this topic should have had an Off topic label.

 

Trying again to upload photo image:

 

Hmmm... not getting too far. No luck uploading to this topic or to a Personal Album. The Help function doesn't give me any clues.

 

What are the limitations for image uploading? These are JPG files ranging from about 280 to 460KB.

I click on the Browse button and identify the JPG file on my local hard drive. I then click on Upload and nothing appears to happen.

Can someone offer some advice?

Edited May 31, 2009 by RCAF_Dudley

[Rooster89 0]

Hey Dudley. After you hit upload, go to the little drop down menu above the upload button where it says "Manage Current Attachments" then double click the attachments you want added to the post.

 

Looking forward to seeing those pics tomarrow.

 

-Rooster

[Check Six 2]

Hi,

I recently had the opportunity to visit the Royal Canadian Military Institute (RCMI), which is on University Ave. in Toronto. The RCMI displays many items from Canada's notable military history. In the their aviation section, is a display case showing remnants from Manfred von Richthofen's Fokker DR1 Triplane. I took the following photos of these items as I thought they might be of interest.

 

I've also included the descriptive text that is next to these items in the display.

 

The display case in the RMCI:

 

Hmmm... sorry - having problems uploading the photos - I'll have to try again.

 

RCAF Dudley,

 

There are a few artifacts from MvR's triplane in the Australian War Museum (IIRC the largest collection in the world - well, us Aussies salvaged the aircraft - and shot it down BTW). Whilst doing some research in the Museum's reading room, I happened across the diary and personal photo album of an AFC (Aust Flying Corps) pilot and was marvelling at his pics when I was surprised to see a pic of the pallbearers carrying the coffin at MVR's funeral and an inked in arrow with the caption "ME" attached.

 

I stared at this for some time and my attention was drawn to the top of the next page where there was a strip of cloth from the Fokker about 4 inches by 1 1/2 inches, completely unprotected, but had been unexposed to light for many decades. Of course, I reported the "find" to a friend who was an employee at the museum and it has since been covered over with a thin piece of plastic.

 

Apparently, genuine pieces of cloth from THAT plane are quite hard to get a hold of, and expensive. Apparently, there is enough "blood red" cloth from MvR's plane around the globe to cover about 5 triplanes.

[Mr. Lucky 0]

The US Air Force Museum in Dayton,OH has a strip of fabric and the tachometer on display.

[Olham 164]

He had just died, when they took his boots, his uniform and god knows whatelse.

To me, such relicts have something horrible about them.

This is what remained of the man, the warrior.

[RCAF_Dudley 0]

Hmm... still no luck with the upload and post. When I select a JPG image and click Upload, the Upload screen has the counter animation, but when it finishes the attachment panel is blank, except for the Manage Current Attachments menu, which says (0) and the pull down states "There are no items currently"

 

Firefox 3.0.10,

NoScript (Combatace.com is allowed to run scripts),

I've tried unloading my anti-virus and firewall (Trend),

Also tried IE6.

 

It must be some setting on my PC.

[Bullethead 12]

To me, such relicts have something horrible about them.

This is what remained of the man, the warrior.

 

I kinda feel the opposite. Taking trophies in war has a long and, for the most part, honorable history. OT1H, you knew your defeated foe was a bad-ass in life, so you needed some way to placate his ghost, which would be even harder to defeat. OTOH, you knew your foe had been favored by the gods and you wanted some of that mojo to rub off on you. This latter feeling was transported in later days into the veneration of saints. Thus, the various things in museums are affording MvR the same reverence that attracts pilgrims to cathedrals housing some fragment of a saint.

 

However, IMHO, showing a photo of the bloody corpse, untouched by morticians, smacks of crass commercialism and propaganda, in a heavy-handed modern effort to counter the above superstitions. He was just a man and now he's dead, see? Others who oppose us can expect the same treatment.

 

I personally prefer the old superstitions in this case.

 

EDIT: MvR himself kept a famous trophy collection. I wonder what his reasons were.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Bullethead

[Hasse Wind 46]

Taking trophies in war has a long and, for the most part, honorable history.

 

And often objects are taken from the dead because the living have a very practical use for them, like taking good boots from a deceased enemy to replace your own bad footwear. I see nothing wrong in such a practice.

 

Besides, if the dead person comes back as a zombie, he needs no boots anyway.

[Olham 164]

...the same reverence that attracts pilgrims to cathedrals housing some fragment of a saint.

 

Exactly. And that's another thing I really hate. Crawling into cathedrals, to catch a glimpse on a bone

that is said to be the left foot's big toe of some so called saint. How far away from real belief is that?

 

But some of what you wrote, Bullet and Hasse, makes sense to me.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Olham

[Cameljockey 3]

EDIT: MvR himself kept a famous trophy collection. I wonder what his reasons were.

 

MvR was an avid hunter from early childhood. Most hunters (the majority of the ones I know anyway) collect trophies from kills.

Whatever became of his collection? Anyone know?

 

CJ

[Olham 164]

As far as I know, it was taken by the victors of WW2 - in this case the Russians,

as his father house was in Schlesien.

[Cameljockey 3]

Oh well. Fat chance of that collection ever seeing the light of day again.

 

CJ

[Bullethead 12]

Exactly. And that's another thing I really hate. Crawling into cathedrals, to catch a glimpse on a bone that is said to be the left foot's big toe of some so called saint. How far away from real belief is that?

 

Like it or hate it, the superstitious keeping of a memento from a notable dead person, even an enemy, is very, very deeply rooted in the human mind. Therefore, it doesn't surprise me to see many instances of it today, not just in museums and cathedrals, but on TV like at Arafat's funeral. So I don't think the practice will ever disappear.

 

Give that it's part of life, you just have to deal with it some way when you meet an example. You can put it in the respectful but very superstitious category with venerated saintly relics, or you can put it in the degrading and oppressive category of gibbetting a hanged thief at the crossroads. I prefer to put museum collections in the former category, if for no other reason than to keep them from spoiling my enjoyment of the rest of the museum.

 

And honestly, while my rational side scoffs at the superstitions surrounding relics, I have to admit that when I view a museum collection of some notable man's effects, I myself feel a touch of that superstitious awe creeping up my spine from its paleolithic roots. Thus, I can understand why people make such displays.

[Olham 164]

Okay, Bullet, you won. But only, as I liked you already before.

And - okay - I admit, that this "creeping up the spine" thing happened to me, too, when I saw the iron mask with a

silver covering, that a Roman officer had worn, in the Varus battle.

It could be, that it was even Arminius' mask, as he was educated and trained by the Romans, he was an officer, and

he had led them into an ambush.

As a man of knowledge, plus military experience, you must know this battle. There is an exhibition about it until September.

They are pretty sure now, that the battle was near Kalkriese. Over a distance of more then 10 kilometers, they found the

remains of that slaughter. Three Legions got almost totally wiped out - a fifth of the strength of the whole Roman empire.

Yes, it makes a chicken skin on me.

[Bullethead 12]

As a man of knowledge, plus military experience, you must know this battle. There is an exhibition about it until September. They are pretty sure now, that the battle was near Kalkriese. Over a distance of more then 10 kilometers, they found the remains of that slaughter. Three Legions got almost totally wiped out - a fifth of the strength of the whole Roman empire. Yes, it makes a chicken skin on me.

 

I saw a show on the History Channel a few months ago about how they'd finally located the battlefield begun to dig up some of the bodies and artifacts. Folks have been looking for it for at least the last couple of centuries.

 

That battle was one of the most significant events in European history, because of its long-term cultural effects. It set an early and long-term boundary on the Roman Empire, drawing a sharp line through Europe between those who got thoroughly romanized and those who didn't, between Romance and Germanic languages, and all sorts of other things. The effects of this are divide are still felt today, rather like how Hadrian's Wall was largely responsible for the continuing differences between England and Scotland.

 

Unfortunately, there hasn't been that much info on the ongoing results of the excavation. I was under the impression from some old Roman historian (I forget which) that a few years later, the Romans went back, gathered up all the identifiably Roman bones they could find scattered about the ground, and burned them. Thus, I've been curious as to whether the excavations verified this somehow.

[Olham 164]

I was under the impression from some old Roman historian (I forget which) that a few years later, the Romans went back, gathered up all the identifiably Roman bones they could find scattered about the ground, and burned them. Thus, I've been curious as to whether the excavations verified this somehow.

 

Yes. After old Roman reports, another Roman High officer returned 5 or 6 years after the battle, and collected and buried the bones.

Graves of Roman bones where found there now, and they proof the former theory, as they show teeth marks from animals, that must

have eaten from the dead bodies, when they where still on the surface.

I will search for a good site about the exhibition, and add it here later.

 

Edit: here it is - and even in English:

 

http://www.kalkriese-varusschlacht.de/

Edited June 1, 2009 by Olham

[Bullethead 12]

Edit: here it is - and even in English

 

Interesting. Too bad there's more about peace symbols than the history :).

[Hasse Wind 46]

I think Arminius would like it if we called him with his proper German name, Hermann.

 

Olham, I don't think the Romans lost a fifth of their total strength at the battle of Teutoburger Wald, even though it was a terrible defeat and had historic consequences. As far as I know, the Imperial army under Augustus (who was the emperor during the battle) had at least 28 legions spread around the Empire.

 

Recently I heard some news about the remains of some newly discovered battlefield in Germany that was dated to a much later period than it was generally thought the Romans had troops so deep in Germania, so it may be our history books are wrong and the Varusschlacht wasn't the end of Roman expansion in Germania. I can't remember from where I read about it, in some newspaper probably. When you think about, we have relatively few sources about ancient history, so I wouldn't be surprised if things were completely different in reality back then. We just don't know about it...

Edited June 2, 2009 by Hasse Wind

[Olham 164]

Yes, Hasse Wind - we tend to imagine those early cultures as far less developed, and those ages as darker,

than they really where. The Romans already had floor heating in their villas. And at the time of Hermann/Armin,

which was the same time as Jesus', there was a wide span of trade and shipping - I often think, the world wasn't

that much different from today.

And how much would one find from our cultures, 2000 years later?