When were bullets with smoketrail common among scouts?

[Creaghorn 10]

everybody in this forum who knows me, knows i try everything to get it more realistic.

 

so i want to try something and need an opinion and maybe some historical verification.

 

IMHO there is a reason why in early war one was an extraodinary pilot when he had downed a handful enemies, and late in the war lot of mediocre pilots became aces in short time.

one reason why the numbers went so high later is of course that there was much more traffic, much more scouts in the air, and many more novice pilots who got thrown into combat with little practice.

but i think one important part was also the tracerbullet.

without tracerbullets one had to get really close to the enemies rear and hit him from very close distance. deflection shooting was an art only few were successfull, because the bullets were invisible to the eye. you could NOT follow the stream and adjust your aim.

 

i think later on (historical verification?) it became common for scouts to have tracer bullets. that made shooting a lot easier for deflection shooting and long range shots. maybe mid 1917? 1918?

 

i want to have two sort of bullets. one where i make the smoke to default and make the tennisballs invisible. when doing this i also want the AI to do the same. So i'll set AI range to easy. i will have to get really close to the enemy, but so has the AI.

then from end of 1917 or something i will drop the smoketrailfile and the visible bullets back into the appropriate folders to have it like it is now and set AI range to hard, where he also can make more long range shots.

 

i think it's worth a try, but i would appreciate any opinions to this idea and maybe some historical evidence when tracerbullets or bullets with smoketrail became common among scouts (before it they only used it for balloonbusting).

[+Winder 32]

everybody in this forum who knows me, knows i try everything to get it more realistic.

 

so i want to try something and need an opinion and maybe some historical verification.

 

IMHO there is a reason why in early war one was an extraodinary pilot when he had downed a handful enemies, and late in the war lot of mediocre pilots became aces in short time.

one reason why the numbers went so high later is of course that there was much more traffic, much more scouts in the air, and many more novice pilots who got thrown into combat with little practice.

but i think one important part was also the tracerbullet.

without tracerbullets one had to get really close to the enemies rear and hit him from very close distance. deflection shooting was an art only few were successfull, because the bullets were invisible to the eye. you could NOT follow the stream and adjust your aim.

 

i think later on (historical verification?) it became common for scouts to have tracer bullets. that made shooting a lot easier for deflection shooting and long range shots. maybe mid 1917? 1918?

 

i want to have two sort of bullets. one where i make the smoke to default and make the tennisballs invisible. when doing this i also want the AI to do the same. So i'll set AI range to easy. i will have to get really close to the enemy, but so has the AI.

then from end of 1917 or something i will drop the smoketrailfile and the visible bullets back into the appropriate folders to have it like it is now and set AI range to hard, where he also can make more long range shots.

 

i think it's worth a try, but i would appreciate any opinions to this idea and maybe some historical evidence when tracerbullets or bullets with smoketrail became common among scouts (before it they only used it for balloonbusting).

 

 

We do have plans to have the auto swap to incendary tracer rounds occur automatically on the correct sort of date but it will be a while yet as other things are higher on the todo list!

 

HTH

 

WM

[Bullethead 12]

so i want to try something and need an opinion and maybe some historical verification.

 

On the historical side of things.....

 

I believe that tracers were invented and in widespread use on the ground long before MGs ever took to the air. As a result, I'm almost certain that every MG belt drawn from the local ammo dump and delivered to a squadron had the usual mix of ball and tracer rounds in it. IOW, the squadron would have had to have removed the tracers if they didn't want them; otherwise they had them by default.

 

I'm fairly sure that tracers were developed almost as soon as MGs were invented because they were quickly found necessary to keep stationary ground MGs hitting stationary ground targets. Even when mounted on a well-secured tripod and with the training and elevation locks fastened, MGs bounce around a lot when firing. This bouncing throws the gun off target, so the gunner has to keep adjusting his aim. However, this same bouncing turns the sights into useless blurs, and the target area itself soon becomes obscured by dust from all the bullet impacts, so it's impossible to tell where you're hitting. Thus the need for tracers on the ground, and it's quite intuitive that they'd be very helpful in air combat, too, so they were probably there from the start.

 

However, it actually turns out that tracer is more often counterproductive in air combat. Surely you've read many pilot memoirs where the author is frequently surprised by enemy tracer flying around him. He immediately goes into evasives and gets out of the way before his attacker can correct his aim.

 

In WW2, some US and RAF officers became convinced that many Germans were getting away due to being tipped off by tracer. Thus, they ordered their squadrons to quit using tracers, and they promptly started getting many more kills, even though all their pilots had been trained to use tracers. This practice was so successful, in fact, that it quick came into widespread use in the ETO in the latter year or 2 of the war, at least for the air-to-air guys. Also note that the German nightfighters didn't use tracer in their upwards-firing cannon for the same reason, although I've never heard that they quit using it in forward-firing guns.

 

I actually have some experience with this. I flew the MMOFS "Aces High" for many years and you could turn your tracers off in it. I did this and it did in fact help my score. Tracers not only tell you when you're being attacked, but also the direction the enemy is coming from without you have to look for him. This allows you to react immediately and spoil his aim without wasting time turning your head.

 

Personally, I've never found tracer to be very useful in air combat. If I've surprised somebody and am lined up right on a non-maneuvering target, I don't need them at all. In a turning fight, the tracer (and often the target) are usually below my nose so I can't see them anyway. And in snapshots, the firing opportunity is over before I can get any feedback from my tracer anyway. It's more like taking a shotgun shot at a passing bird than walking a stream onto a target. Besides, if you're into walking your tracer streams, odds are your guns will jam . Thus, the only time I'm glad to have tracer is when I'm strafing ground targets. Otherwise, they seem to help the enemy more than they help me.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Bullethead

[Hellshade 110]

We do have plans to have the auto swap to incendary tracer rounds occur automatically on the correct sort of date but it will be a while yet as other things are higher on the todo list!

 

HTH

WM

 

 

I'm always impressed by your commitment to historical accuracy, but sometimes it literally borders on scary the stuff you folks think of. Bravo though for having such things in the works or at least planned. These are the little details that nobody else bothers with but that adds so much to the immersion and realism of the game.

 

Hellshade

[+Tailspin 3]

Hello. From what I can gather the Brits developed tracer rounds for the .303 in 1915. Brock and Pomery bullets (incendiary and explosive respectively) were used against Zeps and ballons from September 1916 ownward. The United States did not develop their own versions until spring of 1918. What is unclear is exactly what the parties involved at the time considered tracer, incendiary, and expolsive. I've seen references to tracers as the bullets that made balloons burn. I have also seen reference to what I would call incendiary bullets as "explosive".

 

edit...Ok, a little clarification. The Pomeroy was indeed explosive. It contained nitroglycerin and was designed to explode on impact but took a relatively hard surface to ignite it. The Brock was an exploding incendiary designed to penetrate a Zeppelin's outer shell and ignite inside. The Buckingham was the phosphorous incendiary round that ignited as it exited the muzzle of the gun. All were in use by Home Defense by Sept. 1916. This does not necessarily translate to front line use though.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Tailspin

[Check Six 2]

Bullethead,

 

Thanks for the thread you posted. It gave a lot of insight as to why tracers were loved by some, hated by others. Outstanding work indeed. Tailspin was also very informative.

[Creaghorn 10]

We do have plans to have the auto swap to incendary tracer rounds occur automatically on the correct sort of date but it will be a while yet as other things are higher on the todo list!

 

HTH

 

WM

 

that's spooky,

 

first the devs hear of any good ideas and try to implement it. and now one only thinks about an idea and the devs are working on it even before you announce it

[Creaghorn 10]

On the historical side of things.....

 

I believe that tracers were invented and in widespread use on the ground long before MGs ever took to the air. As a result, I'm almost certain that every MG belt drawn from the local ammo dump and delivered to a squadron had the usual mix of ball and tracer rounds in it. IOW, the squadron would have had to have removed the tracers if they didn't want them; otherwise they had them by default.

 

I'm fairly sure that tracers were developed almost as soon as MGs were invented because they were quickly found necessary to keep stationary ground MGs hitting stationary ground targets. Even when mounted on a well-secured tripod and with the training and elevation locks fastened, MGs bounce around a lot when firing. This bouncing throws the gun off target, so the gunner has to keep adjusting his aim. However, this same bouncing turns the sights into useless blurs, and the target area itself soon becomes obscured by dust from all the bullet impacts, so it's impossible to tell where you're hitting. Thus the need for tracers on the ground, and it's quite intuitive that they'd be very helpful in air combat, too, so they were probably there from the start.

 

However, it actually turns out that tracer is more often counterproductive in air combat. Surely you've read many pilot memoirs where the author is frequently surprised by enemy tracer flying around him. He immediately goes into evasives and gets out of the way before his attacker can correct his aim.

 

In WW2, some US and RAF officers became convinced that many Germans were getting away due to being tipped off by tracer. Thus, they ordered their squadrons to quit using tracers, and they promptly started getting many more kills, even though all their pilots had been trained to use tracers. This practice was so successful, in fact, that it quick came into widespread use in the ETO in the latter year or 2 of the war, at least for the air-to-air guys. Also note that the German nightfighters didn't use tracer in their upwards-firing cannon for the same reason, although I've never heard that they quit using it in forward-firing guns.

 

I actually have some experience with this. I flew the MMOFS "Aces High" for many years and you could turn your tracers off in it. I did this and it did in fact help my score. Tracers not only tell you when you're being attacked, but also the direction the enemy is coming from without you have to look for him. This allows you to react immediately and spoil his aim without wasting time turning your head.

 

Personally, I've never found tracer to be very useful in air combat. If I've surprised somebody and am lined up right on a non-maneuvering target, I don't need them at all. In a turning fight, the tracer (and often the target) are usually below my nose so I can't see them anyway. And in snapshots, the firing opportunity is over before I can get any feedback from my tracer anyway. It's more like taking a shotgun shot at a passing bird than walking a stream onto a target. Besides, if you're into walking your tracer streams, odds are your guns will jam . Thus, the only time I'm glad to have tracer is when I'm strafing ground targets. Otherwise, they seem to help the enemy more than they help me.

 

thank you for your information, bullethead. from this point of view i haven't seen it. i'm currently trying it without visible smoketrail or bullets. it's really a cool sight to see scouts chasing other scouts and circling about, and suddenly the hunted fells into a spin. that must have been the show the people on the ground have seen often.