Question to our German Friends

[Bullethead 12]

even (surprisingly) Dutchmen

 

Actually, calling a "German" a "Dutchman" was the normal usage into the late 1800s (and from long before) in both the UK and the US. Thus, it's use in WW1 is just a holdover from the previous generation.

 

Remember, Germany as we know it didn't exist until 1870--before then, it was all dozens of independent kingdoms, principalities, duchies, etc., which weren't particularly interested in throwing in together and rather resisted the idea when Bismarck and others forced the issue. Even into WW1, some of the more powerful (and therefore still more independent) components of "Germany" had their own military units, uniforms, medals, etc.

 

Before 1870, when an English-speaker called somebody a "German", it meant a VERY broad general category pretty much synonymous with today's category "Germanic". Back then "German" included today's Germans, plus the Dutch, English, Danes, Norwegians, and numerous others. The North Sea was called the "German Ocean" because most of the people living on all its shores were "Germans" (excepting the Scots and some of the Belgians, but they both had a fair amount of "German" blood in them from various sources).

 

On top of this, "Dutch" is just a slight variant of "Deutsche". Today's Germans call themselves and their language Deutsche, and in the US, at least prior to 1870, German immigrants and their immediate descendants called themselves Dutchmen, as an Anglicized version of deutsche mann. I'd expect Germans in the UK did the same. Anyway, this was picked up by others in those countries and thus "Dutchman" became the normal usage to refer to somebody from today's Germany. This was definitely the case in the US where there was a large influx of people from today's Germany long after the influx from today's Netherlands pretty much stopped.

 

My grandfathers were WW1 vets. They were raised by parents who'd grown up prior to the existence of a "Germany", so had called today's Germans "Dutchmen" all their lives and passed this on to their kids. My grandfathers thus tended to called Germans "Dutchmen" out of habit, and it took a deliberate effort of will on their part to call them "Germans" so we of later generations, who'd always known of Germany, would know what they were talking about.

[Wels 2]

Hello,

 

"This is what i thought, however i have changed my view, of only a bit. In WW1, Germany as such was not the bad guy."

 

I think it's fairly well agreed that there was plenty of blame to hand around for WWI, however it's not disputable that the essential causes of the war were German militarism which arose from having a non-democratic form of government allied to a desire to make an empire - not unreasonable from the contemporary POV in Germany, but a tad awkward for Italy, Britain and France. Essentially, it was a war between flawed democracies and even more flawed military imperial oligarchies. To deconstruct the war renders ideas of 'good' and 'bad' ultimately meaningless, however there is a strong argument to be made - and has been made by Prof. Gary Sheffield, amongst others - that the Entente victory in WWI spared Europe a rather unpleasant period of Axis domination. That said, WWII showed up the absurdity of WWI by Hitler harnessing false grievances from the first war to ensure that a second one became inevitable.

 

 

I think you are right, the prussian ideas and the "Schlieffen plan" did not really "help". But there was more behind the scenes, which is seldomly mentioned:

 

General history tells us that it was this developing political "mechanics" and the outbreak of war could have easily prevented, if Kaiser Bill alone would have - of all belligerent nations - ignored his alliance. Then, or so the saying goes, Austro-Hungary would have had no chance to revenge the serbian murder attack, and no possibilty to wage war on its own.

 

But this logic is also applicable for the other alliances:

 

- The alliance between Russia and Serbia lead to terroristic attacks against Austria, the last murder attack was only one in a series of political murderings, and its causers were well known. The (russian and serbian) intent was to de-stabilize the already weak monarchy, and bond between Austria and Hungary.

- the alliance with France tempted Russia to wage war against Germany

- the alliance with England tempted France to wage war against Germany

 

 

At the french-russian meeting of july 21st to 23rd in St. Petersburg, Russia, the main theme was not peace, but the contrary:

Ambassadors and politicians indulged in a mood of conquest, the russian great-countess Anastasia annunciated:

 

"The war will come .. there will be nothing left of Austria ... France will get back the Alsace and Lothringia [from Germany] ... our armies will join in Berlin .. Germany will be obliterated."

 

After the french state visit at july, 24th 1914 the russian Foreign secretary Sasonow was the first to officially conclude: "This is the european war."

 

From all those states England had the least direct reason to enter a war, if not for economical interests, or then Germany ignoring the belgian neutrality during the war, which was the official reason to enter the war against the now-hated "Prussia".

Even before this climate of international (!) "diplomacy", and war, the British Prime minister Asquith had said in his Guildhall speech, that " ... Prussia has to be crushed, the coming war has to be fought to annihilation, to a complete knock-out. No offer for peace will be accepted." At the same time from 1907 to 1914 England had held combined fleet manoeuvers using belgian ports as bridgeheads, and simulating the landing of war material.

 

Kaiser Bill was not a fool, and not a war mongerer, but he was certainly not a diplomate - as it seems there were not too many of those around, all sides. That just William 2nd of all did not break HIS alliance, and did what all those others did, is still being used as a justification for blaming the sole responsibility of this world war to Germany. So .. no "dark side" - better a (very dark) gray.

 

 

Please understand that even if it may sound ok my english is sometimes not quite "up to the job" - especially when it comes to complicated discussions

 

 

Thanks and greetings,

Catfish

Edited October 22, 2009 by Wels

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

 

Please understand that even if it may sound ok my english is sometimes not quite "up to the job" - especially when it comes to complicated discussions

 

 

Thanks and greetings,

Catfish

Your English is far better than many English people I know!!!

The thing is though Catfish...you took the trouble to learn English!...Unlike us lazy Brits who can't be arsed to learn German!

[Wels 2]

Hello UK_Widowmaker,

lol thank you for the praise, i'm flattened no make this flattered lol. I picked up a a lot in my times in England, especially technical terms

 

 

since i bought one of those in Coventry back in 1984 lol, but there still is a big lack of vocabulary, and especially grammar. And I never knew how to set a comma right ..

 

Greetings,

Catfish

[themightysrc 5]

Hi Wels,

 

"That just William 2nd of all did not break HIS alliance, and did what all those others did, is still being used as a justification for blaming the sole responsibility of this world war to Germany."

 

I think that that is being a bit simplistic, although I'll readily agree that Britain had imperialistic ambitions that overrode any sense of propriety with regard to Germany's expanding fleet - and thus empire. It is a key point, though, that viewed through the prism of long term British interests WRT Belgium, any attempt by Germany to tackle France via Belgium would inevitably bring it into conflict with Britain. Observe how the Congress of Vienna and beyond effectively granted Belgium its independence at Britain's insistence. Those ports made a terrific jumping off point for invasion, and ready access to the North Sea for the Imperial Fleet was Britain's nightmare, and had been ever since the 1500s, although the threatening country obvously changed as years went by. Germany was simply the latest threat, coupled with the fact that the 'balance of power' - as brokered by Britain for centuries - was being effectively swept away by a new central European superpower.

 

In the final analysis, the Schleiffen Plan ensured that Britain would go to war, regardless of prior diplomatic machinations by Russia, France or anyone else.

 

Incidentally your English is excellent!

 

Cheers,

Si

[Wels 2]

Hello,

 

" .. In the final analysis, the Schleiffen Plan ensured that Britain would go to war, regardless of prior diplomatic machinations by Russia, France or anyone else. ..."

 

I agree to a hundred percent. Not realizing this certainly sheds some light on german intelligence - meaning "military int." here, or diplomatic reconnaissance, or awareness of reactions.

 

Thanks for the interesting discussion,

Catfish

Edited October 22, 2009 by Wels

[Olham 164]

Widow, I pity everyone who has to learn German as a foreign language - it is much

harder to learn than English.

I think, an artificial language like Esperanto wasn't necessary to create. English can

easily do the job very well.

Someone said: German is the perfect language for setting up a contract.

English is so open, it's perfect for lyrics.

May well be true.

[Bullethead 12]

Widow, I pity everyone who has to learn German as a foreign language - it is much

harder to learn than English.

I think, an artificial language like Esperanto wasn't necessary to create. English can

easily do the job very well.

Someone said: German is the perfect language for setting up a contract.

English is so open, it's perfect for lyrics.

May well be true.

 

Being inherently lazy, I'm glad I had the good sense to be born a native speaker of the current "universal" language. Still, I have learned the important parts of several other languages: how to curse, ask directions to bars, and order drinks .

 

But seriously, I had to take a 2nd language in high school and naively chose German on the theory it would be easier do to supposedly being closer to English than the other options (French and Spanish). WRONG! German seems more alien to me than French or Spanish, and the relatively few points where there are apparent similarities are usually, on closer examination, red herrings. After years of effort, I've reached the point where I can read most German articles on technical subjects I'm familiar with (usually something combat-related) but no way I can write it myself or speak it, and I have trouble understanding spoken German. Learning Latin is actually much easier IMHO.

 

Dutch, OTOH, strikes me as a close cousin of English. The Dutch try hard to disguise this by using bizarre spelling conventions, so that written Dutch looks almost as indecipherable as written Gaelic or Welsh, but once a Dutchman opens his mouth, I find him rather easy to understand.

[Rickitycrate 10]

I was a good German language student all those years ago, 40. Problem is not having the opportunity to keep it sharp by using it over the years. I worked with some Vietnamese for a few years. I taught them some English and I learned a little of their lingo. During my time in Hawaii I make an effort to learn Hawaiian and use it with respect. I spent 3 weeks in Italy and there was next to no English signage at any of the exhibits so it was necessary to try to understand Italian to have some idea of what you were looking at. I find that I am drawn to languages and given exposure I tend to be drawn into learning what I can.

 

I have an African Gray Parrot that is a very well spoken bird. Amazing vocabulary. He will learn anyting I make an effort to teach him. His name is Angel and he can say the whole Hail Mary prayer. When my mother-in-law drops something in the kitchen he says "oh s**t".

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

Wels, would you please be so kind as to cite some sources for post #102?

 

it's not that I don't believe the material there-- but I'd like to double-check it for myself through the sources. I know, for instance, that some of the French generals advocated invading Germany through Belgium before the war (in the book "Phyrric Victory: French Strategy in the Great War")... but I didn't know that there was a conscious effort between the Russians and the Serbians to destabilize the Austrian empire.

[Olham 164]

Rickitycrate, it seems your parrot knows to make intelligent use of his vocabulary.

I have a book about animal intelligence. There is a grey parrot, who can do mathematics.

He cannot only add or substract, he can also multiply and divide. And they made sure,

the results where not hinted in any way by his trainer.

After the long interview for the article, the parrot said, he was tired now, and that he had

not seen "his tree" the whole day. The journalists wondered, and the trainer explained,

that the parrot, before he goes to sleep, loves to sit in a window, from where it could look

at a beautiful tree.

I do not accidently use "he" or "his" instead of "it" or "it's"...

Edited October 23, 2009 by Olham

[Rickitycrate 10]

I don't want to say much more about my birds as it's OT, but they are fascinating.

[Dutch_P47M 9]

Dutch, OTOH, strikes me as a close cousin of English.  The Dutch try hard to disguise this by using bizarre spelling conventions, so that written Dutch looks almost as indecipherable as written Gaelic or Welsh, but once a Dutchman opens his mouth, I find him rather easy to understand.

 

 

 

 

Zeg, ga eens vlug terug naar school in Scheveningen,   LoL. 

 

The written language is more a less like Danish or Swedish language. Once at the University in the Netherlands (not Holland) I had received a report from a Swedish University which I could read without any problems. Also the people are, more a less the same,  tall and very straight and direct to the point, "no means no" and  "yes means yes". At the souther countries this may look very rude were yes does not mean you are going to do it or you know it.

 

I think at that point we from the Netherlands are more a less like the New-Yorkers, including there optimistic big mouth.  

 

 

Good-by guys I'm on holiday to Le Touquet, France, for one week .   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

 

  

Edited October 23, 2009 by Dutch_P47M