2-Seaters in HitR

[Bullethead 12]

I haven't seen this mentioned yet so I figured I'd bring it up....

 

I just tangled with some 2-seaters for the 1st time in HitR, and was amazed at the differences from before, which I don't recall being mentioned. When we attacked them, they all maneuvered around a lot. While their formation kinda broke up, they also stayed mostly together. But instead of just flying along straight and level, they were turning in circles and otherwise being obnoxious. Also (and pay attention here because this is important), their tail gunners had a MUCH bigger field of fire than previously, much closer to what IMHO they really could do back in the day. They could shoot into their front hemisphere and well below the tail to the sides.

 

Needless to say, it was a pleasant change. No more easy 2-seater slaughters, at least if they have rear guns. I was just thankful to be in the "Flying Tank", AKA the DH5, so I could absorb a lot of bullets with no apparent damage until they shot my gun out. But by then I'd actually managed to knock 1 of them down, much to my surprise.

 

So ye be warned. 2-seaters no longer sit there and take it, and they are MUCH harder to approach without getting shot at.

 

 

[VonGuber 2]

Yes, I noticed the same thing earlier this evening. I tangled with some FEs that actually had the nerve to turn and try to shoot back...

 

Still, the coolest thing I saw this past week was the flight of Rolands diving almost vertically through a group of Strutters, all guns blazing away. I was so surprised I forgot to shoot....

[Olham 164]

Thank you for the warning, Bullethead - it may save my life.

[Bullethead 12]

Thank you for the warning, Bullethead - it may save my life.

 

The changes to tail gun field of fire seem only to apply to AI gunners. I just checked the guns myself and the field of fire is still the same as when I used them pre-HitR.

 

I was fighting DFWs yesterday. When I'm at the guns, their field of fire is as follows:

• Elevation: From perhaps -2^ to +45^.
• Traverse: If 0^ is straight ahead, then from about 80^ to 280^ (about in line with the rear interplane strut).

However, with AI gunners, the DFW's rear guns can shoot to within at least 45^ of the nose, perhaps even further around forward. I don't know--I made my initial pass from their 10 o'clock level and thereafter was behind them. Also, the guns can depress WELL below the horizontal, to perhaps -60^. This is the key part, because now you can't hide under their tails so easily.

 

Also, the range of AI gunners has increased. I noticed this the other day while flying my Fee. They used to open fire at 200 yards, but now start about 260 yards. This is without changing any AI shooting Workshop options from pre-HitR.

 

I consider all these changes as welcome improvements. It always bugged me before that tail gunners didn't have anywhere near the field of fire of their real counterparts, which made it way too easy to bag 2-seaters from below. From photos I've seen, even the early field expedient gun mounts (such as in the attached pic, of an originally unarmed Alb B.I(Ph) ) were capable of shooting well downward, and most factory mounts could shoot well forward between the wings. The Scarff ring and the later German and Austrian mounts had 360^ traverse so could shoot straight ahead upwards, and I'm sure they all were capable of much more than 45^ elevation.

 

Now we just need the same fields of fire for human gunners

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Olham 164]

From some pictures I've seen it looks very much, like the MG mount

could be moved along the ring around the gunner.

If so, they could move the mount left or right, and lower the MG from that position.

That would give you a big increase of your field of fire rear downwards.

[Hasse Wind 46]

Interesting. I haven't shot down any 2-seaters in HitR yet, as I've only been encountering fighters (or flying as a 2-seater pilot), so it's good to know there has been progress. Maybe next the Fees will start performing that Lufberry circle.

[Bullethead 12]

If so, they could move the mount left or right, and lower the MG from that position. That would give you a big increase of your field of fire rear downwards.

 

That's what the photos show. They'd stand up in the cockpit to fire that way, and crouch down to fire upwards. That's why the Scraff ring had those angled brackets to raise and lower the guns relative to the ring. You'd jack them up to fire upwards, so it was easier to crouch down behind them, and lower them to fire downwards, so you didn't have to stand up so high. This was an advantage over the German mounts, which don't seem to have had any height adjustment like this.

 

OTOH, as I understand things, the Scarff ring only allowed the guns to pivot in elevation; to traverse, you had to turn the whole ring. The German mounts, however, seem to have allowed the gun to pivot in both directions, plus the later ones had the rotating ring as well. So perhaps the German mounts were easier to follow crossing targets with?

 

This all brings up the subject of the fields of fire of human-controlled guns. These definitely ain't the same in all OFF planes (besides being now rather more limited than what the AI can do). For instance, the Fee's guns can be pointed up to about 80^, the highest elevation I've yet seen in any plane. I think they all should have that. Most human guns are stuck with 45^ elevation. Also, while the DFW's gun can point forward a little, the RE8's can't quite reach straight out from the side.

[Guest British_eh]

Slightly OFF topic, but I have noticed the Scouts now attack by coming up from below you r low six, completely out of sight, especially using the hat switch.

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh

[Olham 164]

Today I attacked a flight of 5 or 6 Strutter A1.

They behaved pretty defensive; I got fired at from several craft.

Now I usually pick the last flying crate. I fly right under the craft, and then I pull up steep,

so I can fire into the engine, tank and pilot area.

I drop the nose, before I come out level behind the craft, and into the range of the gunner.

Diving, I gain speed for the next very steep upward attack.

Usually two such attacks are enough to destroy the craft.

Often they explode or catch fire - today it happened again; see "Krauts vs Crumpets".

 

This time, the more aggressive gunners destroyed my engine; I had to land dead stick.

They could have even killed me.

Fighting together instead of every man for himself, they made it much tougher.

[Bullethead 12]

Just now I ran into several flights of DFWs and had a better look at what they were doing. It was the "Indian run" maneuver, where the lead plane would circle back to get behind somebody trying to get behind the last of the 2-seaters. And as soon as he'd done so, the new lead plane would circle back. Meanwhile, the main formation was weaving around generally being hard to line up in the sights, especially with all the tailgunner fire. They quickly got my engine and I land to forceland near a convenient convent

 

 

[Von Paulus 8]

Which type of AI are you running?

[Bullethead 12]

I'm using "historical AI". The above 2-seater scraps were happening in August 1917.