Any planes with good TVC flight models out?

[MacBradley 0]

Most of the planes I've seen that have Thrust Vectoring seem to also mention that it isn't implemented properly, or at all. I was just wondering if anyone has had any success, or is working on anything TVC for SF2, or if it's even possible to do in SF2. I know basically nothing about the way that SF's flight model works, so sorry if this is a trite question.

[Silverbolt 104]

No, there is none...maybe the F-15 ACTIVE that Fubar and FC are working on,but its not released yet

[Guest HoneyFox]

I can tell you something about it in SF1 series. and i guess in SF2, it will be (almost) the same.

 

you can achieve TVC in two ways:

 

1. use REACTION_CONTROL_SYSTEM to achieve it. the disadvantage is that the thrust of the TVC will not be able to affected by the throttle but is preset and thus is constant. so even if you are standing still on the runway, you can use 'TVC' and soon you will find your plane in a ... well ... dangerous status.  

 

2. use the TVC function in engines provided by SF engine. the disadvantage is that, you can only have one-direction TVC per engine, and the direction will be only vertical (correct me if i'm wrong). that means, you cannot have TVC function like what Su-37 uses but only like the one F-22 uses.  (sorry for my poor english, i hope that i made it clear.) and due to the one-direction limitation, you will have to modify keyboard's settings to manually add an additional ranged input just being the opposite (counterpart?) of the PITCH_CONTROL. and make a second engine with its thrust vector's input set to the ranged input you just added. in this way, you can achieve real TVC physics for F-22. but still there is a disadvantage (and may be really the only one left): the afterburner effect. yes, you have two engines, one for TVC pitching up, one for TVC pitching down, but when you use the afterburner, two flames will make it look weird enough.  

Edited January 30, 2010 by HoneyFox

[Fubar512 1,350]

Axis-linked TVC does not really work for fixed wing aircraft in this series. Pitch works inversely, which is fine for helo models (since pushing forward on the collective should tilt the back-end of rotor-hub up), but obviously not good for fixed wings, as one winds up with nozzles pushing the nose up, and the control surfaces pitching downward. Interestingly enough, one can have differential nozzles working under this mode (left up, right down, and visa-versa), for roll augmentation at low airspeeds. Yaw-axis mode is not an option.

 

Switch-mapped TVC (as in the case of the Harriers, F-35s, and the YaK-38 & 141), works well for VTOL and STOL operations, but is rather clumsy to use while in a dogfight. The real issue is that this series does not properly emulate fly by wire, which would be necessary to take full advantage of TV nozzles...imagine, for example, pulling back on the stick when one reaches rotation speed; the aircraft's tail would be driven right into the tarmac. IN RL, an FBW system would limit nozzle deflection until the aircraft was safely airborne, and at a controllable airspeed. There's no way to model this at present.

Edited January 30, 2010 by Fubar512

[Guest HoneyFox]

Axis-linked TVC does not really work for fixed wing aircraft in this series.  Pitch works inversely, which is fine for helo models (since pushing forward on the collective should tilt the back-end of rotor-hub up), but obviously not good for fixed wings, as one winds up with nozzles pushing the nose up, and the control surfaces pitching downward. Interestingly enough, one can have differential nozzles working under this mode (left up, right down, and visa-versa), for roll augmentation at low airspeeds. Yaw-axis mode is not an option.

 

Switch-mapped TVC (as in the case of the Harriers, F-35s, and the YaK-38 & 141), works well for VTOL and STOL operations, but is rather clumsy to use while in a dogfight.  The real issue is that this series does not properly emulate fly by wire, which would be necessary to take full advantage of TV nozzles...imagine, for example, pulling back on the stick when one reaches rotation speed; the aircraft's tail would be driven right into the tarmac.  IN RL, an FBW system would limit nozzle deflection until the aircraft was safely airborne, and at a controllable airspeed. There's no way to model this at present.

 

 

 

 

er... well, i have a word to say, pitch does work inversely initially, but it can be fixed.

Edited January 30, 2010 by HoneyFox

[Fubar512 1,350]

er... well, i have a word to say, pitch does work inversely initially, but it can be fixed.

 

OH REALLY? Man up and show us

[+Dave 2,322]

er... well, i have a word to say, pitch does work inversely initially, but it can be fixed.

 

Only until TK implements it. I think Fubar is more than qualified to answer this since he has been the pioneer on it and bugging TK about this for years.

[Guest HoneyFox]

OH REALLY?  Man up and show us    

Firstly, here comes a screenshot. which can make you believe me more than before. 

 

 

[Guest HoneyFox]

Only until TK implements it. I think Fubar is more than qualified to answer this since he has been the pioneer on it and bugging TK about this for years.

 

i won't say anything about the topic if i didn't succeeded in tests.

 

yes, Fubar is really experienced. but that doesn't mean he knows everything i know.

 

of course, he surely know much which i don't know.

 

 

[FastCargo 412]

 

Been there, done that.

 

Now, show us pitch linked upward thrusting engines.

 

NOT using the thrust vectoring controls. And with the initial thrust axis at zero degrees.

 

FC

Edited January 31, 2010 by FastCargo

[Guest HoneyFox]

Here comes part of the code. i guess most of you will understand it.

 

in keyboard mapping file:

 

 

[RangedControl***]
AxisControl=THROTTLE_1_CONTROL
MaxValue=1000.000000
MinValue=-1000.000000
DeadZone=6.000000
Saturation=97.000000
ReverseJoystick=FALSE
MouseScale=1.000000
UseMouseRate=FALSE
ReverseMouse=FALSE
LimitValue=TRUE
SelfCenterRate=2.000000
KeyControlRate=1.000000
AllowKeyControl=TRUE
IncreaseControl=PITCH_UP
DecreaseControl=PITCH_DOWN
CenterControl=

 

This is just the opposite/counterpart of the PITCH_CONTROL.

 

and we modify the engine:

 

ThrustVectoring=TRUE
ThrustVectorInputName=THROTTLE_1_CONTROL
ThrustVectorControlRate=2.0
MaxVectoredPitchAngle=-15.0

 

 

 

thus, the engine will be able to turn upward and turn upward only.

 

in order to gain both upward and downward TVC, we need to create 2 dummy engines which are used for upward and downward TVC. and the original one to provide main thrust. in this case, only the afterburner effect is not achieved.

Edited January 31, 2010 by HoneyFox

[Guest HoneyFox]

and i'd like to know how does FC achieve that F-15ACTIVE TVC?

 

by using manual thrustvectorcontrol with non-zero initial thrust angle? if so, i have already tested it several months ago, effects are good if the pilot can adjust the tvc well. but ai will suck with it.

 

 

[FastCargo 412]

Interesting, but the AI can't use the additional axis generated...try it, you'll notice it yourself.

 

FC

[Guest HoneyFox]

Interesting, but the AI can't use the additional axis generated...try it, you'll notice it yourself.

 

FC

 

 

 

 

you are right. AI can't use that axis.

 

 

in fact, AI never knows how to use thrust vector control. unless we use REACTION_CONTROL_SYSTEM with MinThrustVectorInput=0.0. so it isn't a surprise that the AI can't use that new axis.   because AI generates input directly to those known axises, not through the control mapping.

 

 

[Fubar512 1,350]

FC, HF, you're both right, and both verrrry wrong

 

HF, you ever see an episode of "House MD"? Well, all I can say is, thanks for the insight....you were about 33-50% there. The clues were in the Thust_Vector_Control, and in theControlSet001 entries

 

For now, and limited to in-flight TVC (Raptor, Active, MiG & Su OVT models), as opposed to VTOL TV (Harriers and Yaks), this is what I (and the AI ) use :

 

 

[ControlSet001]

THRUST_VECTOR_CONTROL=JOYSTICK01_Y-AXIS

 

[RangedControl008]

AxisControl=THRUST_VECTOR_CONTROL

MaxValue=1000.000000

MinValue=-1000.000000

DeadZone=0.000000

Saturation=100.000000

ReverseJoystick=FALSE

MouseScale=1.000000

UseMouseRate=FALSE

ReverseMouse=FALSE

LimitValue=TRUE

SelfCenterRate=0.000000

KeyControlRate=1.000000

AllowKeyControl=TRUE

IncreaseControl=THRUST_VECTOR_UP

DecreaseControl=THRUST_VECTOR_DOWN

CenterControl=

[Fubar512 1,350]

Proof of concept video, notice the ability to hold steady altitude at 33 units of AoA at less than cruise power. Also note the pitch angle change of the ab plumes. And yes, you're neot seeing things, that heat blur effect is really there

 

http://forum.combatace.com/uploads/1264640372/gallery_279_43_11844042.wmv

[Guest HoneyFox]

FC, HF, you're both right, and both verrrry wrong  

 

HF, you ever see an episode of "House MD"?  Well, all I can say is, thanks for the insight....you were about 33-50% there.  The clues were in the Thust_Vector_Control, and in theControlSet001 entries

 

For now, and limited to in-flight TVC (Raptor, Active, MiG & Su OVT models), as opposed to VTOL TV (Harriers and Yaks), this is what I (and the AI ) use :

 

 

[ControlSet001]

THRUST_VECTOR_CONTROL=JOYSTICK01_Y-AXIS

 

[RangedControl008]

AxisControl=THRUST_VECTOR_CONTROL

MaxValue=1000.000000

MinValue=-1000.000000

DeadZone=0.000000

Saturation=100.000000

ReverseJoystick=FALSE

MouseScale=1.000000

UseMouseRate=FALSE

ReverseMouse=FALSE

LimitValue=TRUE

SelfCenterRate=0.000000

KeyControlRate=1.000000

AllowKeyControl=TRUE

IncreaseControl=THRUST_VECTOR_UP

DecreaseControl=THRUST_VECTOR_DOWN

CenterControl=

 

 

 

 

well, i haven't watched House MD. i even never hear about it.

 

having a sight at your profile, i found some problems:

 

1. this profile will only make TVC enable when you have a joystick. or you will have to use THRUST_VECTOR_UP and THRUST_VECTOR_DOWN frequently due to SelfCenterRate=0.

 

2. this may interfere the original experience of the VTOL planes, when you pull/push the stick, what would happen to the planes?

 

 

 

 

so i'd rather use an additional ranged control to take control of the TVC individually.

 

TK has hid several unused ranged controls for us. THROTTLE_1/2/3/4_CONTROL and so on. have a look at some ini profile and you will find them easily.

 

 

[Fubar512 1,350]

well, i haven't watched House MD. i even never hear about it.

 

having a sight at your profile, i found some problems:

 

1. this profile will only make TVC enable when you have a joystick. or you will have to use THRUST_VECTOR_UP and THRUST_VECTOR_DOWN frequently due to SelfCenterRate=0.

 

2. this may interfere the original experience of the VTOL planes, when you pull/push the stick, what would happen to the planes?

 

 

 

 

so i'd rather use an additional ranged control to take control of the TVC individually.

 

TK has hid several unused ranged controls for us. THROTTLE_1/2/3/4_CONTROL and so on. have a look at some ini profile and you will find them easily.

 

House MD, is a televising series, who's main character is a talented, but eccentric physician. House is world renown for his ability to cure people when no one else can. He surrounds himself with a team of doctors, for the purpose of providing "differential" diagnosis. His team members often supply diagnoses that are at odds with his own, and quite often, he finds insights in these opposing diagnosis that result in a cure, even though they are initially wrong, in of themselves.

 

Actually, this mapping still allows for VTOL TV, as the controls still retain the statement for key-mapping. Using this mapping, in VTOL mode, you can "park" the nozzles, by fully retracting them. Afterwords, no amount of pitch input will activate them, until you depress the TV "down" key, in effect "unparking" them . Unfortunately, while in VTOL mode, the nozzles are still pitch-linked. This may be advantageous for "viffing", however.

 

I also notice that that the entries have a numbered control set staement...perhaps one can create a "ControlSet002" in addition to the existing one, and switch between them, prior to game start.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Fubar512

[Guest HoneyFox]

House MD, is a televising series, who's main character is a talented, but eccentric physician.  House is world renown for his ability to cure people when no one else can.  He surrounds himself with a team of doctors, for the purpose of providing "differential" diagnosis. His team members often supply diagnoses that are at odds with his own, and quite often, he finds insights in these opposing diagnosis that result in a cure, even though they are initially wrong, in of themselves.

 

Actually, this mapping  still allows for VTOL TV, as the controls still retain the statement for key-mapping.  Using this mapping, in VTOL mode, you can "park" the nozzles, by fully retracting them.  Afterwords, no amount of pitch input will activate them, until you depress the TV "down" key, in effect "unparking" them   .  Unfortunately, while in VTOL mode, the nozzles are still pitch-linked.  This may be advantageous for "viffing", however.

 

I also notice that that the entries have a numbered control set staement...perhaps one can create a "ControlSet002" in addition to the existing one, and switch between them, prior to game start.

 

 

 

 

ControlSet001 002... is for 'multiple keys mapping to one function'. that means, you can map both one key on your keyboard and a button on your joystick to the same function. at this time, there will be two controlsets. in each one, there will be one item binding the function to one of the key/button.

 

 

 

[+ace888 327]

FC, HF, you're both right, and both verrrry wrong

 

HF, you ever see an episode of "House MD"? Well, all I can say is, thanks for the insight....you were about 33-50% there. The clues were in the Thust_Vector_Control, and in theControlSet001 entries

 

For now, and limited to in-flight TVC (Raptor, Active, MiG & Su OVT models), as opposed to VTOL TV (Harriers and Yaks), this is what I (and the AI ) use :

 

 

[ControlSet001]

THRUST_VECTOR_CONTROL=JOYSTICK01_Y-AXIS

 

[RangedControl008]

AxisControl=THRUST_VECTOR_CONTROL

MaxValue=1000.000000

MinValue=-1000.000000

DeadZone=0.000000

Saturation=100.000000

ReverseJoystick=FALSE

MouseScale=1.000000

UseMouseRate=FALSE

ReverseMouse=FALSE

LimitValue=TRUE

SelfCenterRate=0.000000

KeyControlRate=1.000000

AllowKeyControl=TRUE

IncreaseControl=THRUST_VECTOR_UP

DecreaseControl=THRUST_VECTOR_DOWN

CenterControl=

 

 

Fubar512

 

Your video was excellent... If I apply your data codes on the following aircraft (F-15, Su/Mig series aircraft) would I see the same result as on the video?

 

Thanks

[Guest HoneyFox]

That engine was made by lod animations.

 

and looking at the afterburner effect, i also found the same problem. only turn upwards.

 

just a guess, why not make the afterburner effect a part of the model? maybe it's worth a try. (transparent afterburner effect... just like the canopy maybe, with proper texture will make it look like real afterburner)

 

 

[MacBradley 0]

Glad to see people are pursuing TVC effects! I'm pumped that there is an F-15 ACTIVE in the works!

[FastCargo 412]

That engine was made by lod animations.

 

No it wasn't.

 

FC

[Fubar512 1,350]

Fubar512

 

Your video was excellent... If I apply your data codes on the following aircraft (F-15, Su/Mig series aircraft) would I see the same result as on the video?

 

Thanks

 

In a word, yes. The thrust-axis would work in the vertical range, from straight ahead, or 0.0 degrees, to whichever negative pitch angle you've decided on (I'm using -20.0 in the Active, to keep it realistic).

[Guest HoneyFox]

No it wasn't.

 

FC

 

then it should be control surfaces? right? i meant to mean control surfaces but i typed it as animation. lol. 

Edited February 1, 2010 by HoneyFox