USAAF vs VVS

[TX3RN0BILL 3]

I was just rereading "The Blond Knight of Germany", the biography of Erich Hartmann, and I was wondering about two events that are stated in the book, close to the end - how Hartmann goaded the USAAF and VVS to have a go at each other, once whilst attacking a soviet bomber formation, which besides russian escorts also featured the presence of a squadron of Mustangs - where his attack wasn't attributed to him but rather ended up in a dogfight between the USAAF and the VVS, and Hartmann's last mission, where his last kill also prompted some unfriendly fire between the surviving Yaks and some Mustangs who ventured into the area... Are there any further records or incidents like these between the forces that were allies during the war yet would oppose each other during the Cold War?

[+Brain32 265]

I've read quite a few, but can't remember the source right now, they are all mostly 3rd party so to say(german and other) as neither side officially or unofficially supported those stories AFAIK.

[+Gocad 26]

Wikipedia entry about Ivan Kozhedub

 

That story is also brought up in one of the Osprey AotA publications.

 

Come to think of it, it's quite possible that something like this has happened. They didn't introduce invasion stripes just for fun...

Edited March 29, 2010 by Gocad

[+Gepard 11,295]

VVS is the wrong term. This is the soviet air defence. Yaks were used in the frontal aviation. Its a big difference. In Korea the units of the frontal aviation fought very successfully while the VVS units failed.

 

To the descriped combat. It is not uncertain, that such things could happen. Unkown types of planes in the sky and suddenly one of the own is falling with a smoke trail. Its easy to guess what you would think and do in such a situation. Especcially if there is no way to communicate with each other. I dont think that the americans could speak russian and vice versa.

In one of Koshedubs interviews after the fall of the soviet union he said that the numbers of the planes he had shot down was beyond the 100. One or two of them were Mustangs, he said. But only 65 of his kills were accepted by the soviet aviation authority.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Gepard

[TX3RN0BILL 3]

Thanks for the corrective, Gepard... Still, strange that the U.S. would send fighters into an area which was naturally going to be occupied by the advancing soviet air force, without any sort of effective coordination...

 

Whilst searching around the internet I came across this post in another forum, 12oclockhigh.net :

 

On 18 March 1945 the 352nd FG, 353rd FG, 357th FG & 359th FG all had contact with Soviet fighters in the Berlin area.

 

A P-51 from the 353rd and one from the 352nd crash landed behind Soviet lines as a result of engagements with the Soviets.

 

Several flights of 352nd FG mixed it up with Yak-9s but combat was broken off when proper recognition was established. However, Lt. Albert Peterson of the 487th FS got into a turning contest with four Yaks and got himself shot down. Peterson eventually made his way back to his base on 1 May 1945. I couldn’t find anything more on the 353rd FG or the 357th FG.

 

But the big story was what happened with the 359th FG over the airfields at Zackerick and Joachimsthal. Mustangs of the 368th FS and 369th FS shot down a total of nine and damaged one of the Russians in a good sized fracas with no losses. They also destroyed two more on the ground as they were taxiing to take off. The 359th initially mistook the La-5s for Fw 190s and the Yak-9s for Bf 109s. The Americans broke off combat when they figured out their mistake but in some cases the Soviets wanted to keep fighting so the Americans obliged and shot them down. The stats show that it was not much of a contest.

 

High scorers that day were Capt. Ralph Cox who shot down three La-5s and Maj. Niven Cranfill who flamed two Yak-9s. Both became aces with those victories.

 

Here are confirmed victories for the 359th FG on 18 March 1945:

 

Cranfill, 368th FS: 2 Yak-9s

Cox 369th FS: 3 La-5s

Burtner, 369th FS: 1 Yak-9

Burtner, 369th FS: 2 Yak-9s (ground)

McCormack, 369th FS: 1 Yak-9

Gaines, 369th FS: 1 Yak-9

McIntosh, 369th FS: 1 Yak-9

Berndt, 369th FS: 1 Yak-9 (damaged)

 

After the incident Lt. McIntosh was court marshaled and sent back to the USA because his was the only gun camera film evidence of the incident that survived.

 

On the Russian side Joseph Stalin had the surviving Russian pilots executed and expected the USA to do the same with the 359th pilots which of course never happened.

 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=2670&highlight=Friendly+Fire+1945&page=7

[+Gepard 11,295]

Tja, the american claims! Its a story of his own. I want to tell you a story that i have heared from the uncle of my mother. He was fighter pilot in the Reichsverteidigung (air defence) and has flown the Me-410. In one combat he was shot down after mixing with 4 american fighters. After the war he learned that all american fighters were credited with a kill because all of them had shooten on the Me-410 and all of them were credited that they hit the Me-410 with 7 bullits, what meant an official "kill". So in reality the germans loss one plane, the americans claimed 4 kills.

A very similar story are the american claimes in Korea War or Vietnam. Or to say it with the words of Pepelyayev, the Korean War top scorer: Not all claimed kills are really kills.

[shotdown 8]

Tja, the american claims! Its a story of his own. I want to tell you a story that i have heared from the uncle of my mother. He was fighter pilot in the Reichsverteidigung (air defence) and has flown the Me-410. In one combat he was shot down after mixing with 4 american fighters. After the war he learned that all american fighters were credited with a kill because all of them had shooten on the Me-410 and all of them were credited that they hit the Me-410 with 7 bullits, what meant an official "kill". So in reality the germans loss one plane, the americans claimed 4 kills.

A very similar story are the american claimes in Korea War or Vietnam. Or to say it with the words of Pepelyayev, the Korean War top scorer: Not all claimed kills are really kills.

 

That's not only an american problem, it happens to all air forces. Remember that, in the Battle of Britain, Luftwaffe pilots claimed more british fighters than RAF actually had. Of course, there are also the opposite, planes that are shot down and not claimed because the pilot didn't see them crash.