Kreelin's FM....

[UnknownPilot 33]

Been doing a lot of downloading, installing and playing lately and have some questions, thought I'd put them all in one thread.

 

 

Reading a thread where someone wanted to put a TMF MiG-29 FM into the Marcfighters Su-27, someone else posted a link to an update from Kreelin, as well as some pics of what was possible. I got that, and was just amazed. It's fantastic. And shows the strength of the TW engine as well (in LOMAC, for example, the only way to do a Cobra is to press the K key, it's a kludge (maybe that's why the K key was chosen lol), just a bit of scripted animation, much like the landings).

 

 

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MiG-29A:

 

This got me to wondering if there was such an FM for the Fulcrum. From what I've seen, I've got the most recent MiG pack (this one - http://forum.combata...-mig-29-soviet/ ), and while the Russian MiG-29A is an amazing ride, it can't do a Cobra. When I follow the same advice as per the Flanker's FM update (slow to 500kph, pull max deflection as fast as possible, and ride it out till speed drops to 200kph), it gets the nose up fairly high, but not quite vertical, and then kicks off to the right and mushes out.

 

The upshot is that you can abuse the hell out of it, whereas the Flanker now requires a very delicate touch. I was just wondering if there was a more intricate FM available for it (the Fulcrum, one akin to the Flanker 1.5 update FM).... or if this is just right? (I thought the Fulcrum could Cobra, but maybe I'm mistaken?)

 

Also, it's my understanding that the Soviets did not water down the Fulcrums sent to Warsaw Pact nations. East Germany was WP. So the German LW MiG-29G should be every bit as good, just "nato-ized". But I would swear and bet money that the Russian A is superior in terms of combat mobility and ability. Yet.... when I looked at the data.inis they appeared to be the same. Am I crazy, or is the German one actually just a bit worse? Should they be the same? Should I copy the data.inis?

 

 

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F-16:

 

Also on Kreelin's site was an FM update for all TMF F-16s. I only have the F-16A_Blk1 installed. Since it was an FM pack for all of them, I decided to get it and pull that one out to try it (copying the original files first, naturally), and when I tried it, it "felt" like I would expect an F-16 to feel like, it seemed a little more 'robotic' in roll response (again, what I'd expect, so that's a positive), but seemed like it was a little scaled back.

 

When I put it in the hands of the AI, I found out just how scaled back it really is. I have a mission where there are 2 waves of F-16s - 2 airborne for a headon merge, then 3 that take off later from another location (though the 3rd of that group is usually spawned inside a mountain for some reason), even though they are A's, it's set in 2007 (because it was originally an Su-30 mission that I edited all the planes in for various testing options, since I liked everything else about it), equipping the Falcons with all aspect 9Ls, making them pretty deadly, and they are quick to fire those things off too. I've used this for various comparitive tests just for fun.

 

Once I installed the updated FM, the challenge of that mission was gone. It was a total walk-over. One of the first 2 crashed on it's own, the other was just sort of hanging around and I gunned it down. The 3rd was missile fodder, and then I missiled 2 more on the ground and straffed a 3rd (sometimes they have trouble taking off, it's odd).

 

The first 2 were a head-on merge and they fired about 5 missiles at us, but we both evaded them all, after that, like I said, the one crashed and the other just sort of seemed to give up the fight.

 

 

Has anyone else tried this FM? Any comments on it? Is it more accurate, or should I go back to the previous one (that came with the MF F-16A_Blk1)?

[MigBuster 2,884]

What version of the game were the flight models done for? . A lot has been changed over the years by TK regarding flight dynamics in the game so it could be likely that they handle nothing like they did when they were first created if you are using a recent version. Other data has also been added to the data.ini file over the years too.

 

As for the cobra - im not sure that was a unique Su-27 thing and Ive only seen the seen the latest OVT MiG-29/35 perform a version on video - although Ive read that certain US jets like the F-14 could perform it anyway - but cant back that up at the mo.

Edited April 13, 2010 by MigBuster

[UnknownPilot 33]

What version of the game were the flight models done for? . A lot has been changed over the years by TK regarding flight dynamics in the game so it could be likely that they handle nothing like they did when they were first created if you are using a recent version. Other data has also been added to the data.ini file over the years too.

 

As for the cobra - im not sure that was a unique Su-27 thing and Ive only seen the seen the latest OVT MiG-29/35 perform a version on video - although Ive read that certain US jets like the F-14 could perform it anyway - but cant back that up at the mo.

 

 

I'm using SF2:V with the Feb 2010 patch applied.

 

While I realize that certain FMs are older and don't take advantage of what they could (due to changes in the core after the fact), I'm just trying to get the "best", or most accurate version possible, however old it may be and whatever limitations or lack it may have (if it's the best, then it's the best; kind of thing).

 

 

This is the Su-27 thread I referenced - http://forum.combatace.com/topic/46465-how-to-replace-marcfighters-su-27-flight-model-with-tmf-mig-29/page__p__334157__hl__cobra%20maneuver__fromsearch__1&?do=findComment&comment=334157

 

In it, Silverbolt posted a URL to Kreelin's site - http://kreelin.free.fr .

 

The first link at the top of that page is the Flanker update. It's from May 2008, and apparently just for Gen1 TW sims. However, it works in my install and is downright amazing. As I said, it's a bit tricky to use (lest you exceed AoA and "cobra" when you don't want to, killing your speed. You need to be very mindful of the tone and develop a mental sense for speed bleed in a hard turn at the edge when you can't look at your alpha gauge.

 

 

The MiG-29A that I'm using I posted the link above, that's from March 2009, and again, apparently for Gen1, but it's all that I can find so far, which is why I wanted to ask here, incase there's a hidden gem somewhere on the net that I don't know about, or maybe to spark some interest among the FM gurus.

 

 

The F-16A that I'm using is here - http://www.column5.us/aircraft2.shtml ; second from bottom. It's from 2006 and I had to edit one of the files to get the canopy to show up in externals (but still don't have it working inside), and the way point indication dial is a little messed up, but otherwise it works like a charm and fully lived up to all expectations as a deadly in-close knife fighter.

 

The update from Kreelin's site is dated September 2008. So I would think, if anything, it would take advantage of more features and be more modern. It just seems odd that it seems to be reduced in capability to less than what I would expect and that the AI seems flat footed in it. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but just makes me curious, which is why I'm asking.

 

 

 

Regarding the Cobra, in another thread I was reading, someone, I think it was FC? Not entirely sure so apologies. Said that any plane with a LERX could do it under the right envelope conditions, if the controls allowed for it. That theoretically the F-14 could, and the F-16, but the FBW would pretty much prevent it. I don't know which F-14 was being referred to, but the MF F-14A (with SF2 update patch applied) certainly can not. It doesn't really need to though, it's lack of cobra-ability just lets you abuse the heck out of it and it handles awesomely.

 

But anyway, I'm sure I remember reading or hearing about the Fulcrum being able to do the move, although it was first attempted and demonstrated in the Flanker.

[+Brain32 265]

although Ive read that certain US jets like the F-14 could perform it anyway - but cant back that up at the mo.

I can.

 

[UnknownPilot 33]

I can.

 

 

I always thought that the true definition of the maneuver was to put the nose past 90* then bring it back down again without changing altitude (or at least minimal change).

 

That looked like a high alpha snap into zoom-climb. Cobra-like, but not cobra.

 

Still awesome to see though. But Grummans always are.

[Fubar512 1,350]

I always thought that the true definition of the maneuver was to put the nose past 90* then bring it back down again without changing altitude (or at least minimal change).

 

That looked like a high alpha snap into zoom-climb. Cobra-like, but not cobra.

 

The instant you apply even the slightest degree of deflection to whatever control surfaces control pitch on a given airframe, you will cause a change in altitude...unless you have a surface applying equal and opposite deflection located somewhere on the other side of the center of movement (such as a canard). Aircraft performing the Cobra are changing altitude, however slight that change might be.

 

It's nature's law, Danial-san, not mine

[UnknownPilot 33]

The instant you apply even the slightest degree of deflection to whatever control surfaces control pitch on a given airframe, you will cause a change in altitude...unless you have a surface applying equal and opposite deflection located somewhere on the other side of the center of movement (such as a canard). Aircraft performing the Cobra are changing altitude, however slight that change might be.

 

It's nature's law, Danial-san, not mine

 

 

 

 

Yeah, yeah, I know, you are correct on the technical side. I just meant that when you watch them, they seem to change very little. Perhaps that's an artifact of the filming, or perhaps they were dropping alt to begin with at a slight rate. However, one thing is certain, they aren't exactly dropping like the space shuttle in order to cause that massive flare to not shoot them up. ;)

 

Kreelin's Flanker does this. Level, it'll go up, but only a bit. However, get it into a slight dive where it's basically level but losing alt, then it seems to stay where it was.

 

That 'Cat looked like it was shooting way up. :)

 

But anyway......

[+Brain32 265]

I always thought that the true definition of the maneuver was to put the nose past 90* then bring it back down again without changing altitude (or at least minimal change).

 

That looked like a high alpha snap into zoom-climb. Cobra-like, but not cobra.

 

 

The thing is, this clip was not taped "to show the Cobra", meaning most if not all clips of Flankers doing Cobra manouver are shot against only the sky, thus any judgement of change in the altitude becomes virtually impossible.

Other than that, the over 90deg alpha also reduced the impression of altitude change...

[UnknownPilot 33]

Last night I looked at the 2 F-16 data ini files. The one that came with the MF F-16 download itself, and Kreelin's update.

 

What I saw was that the 2 were almost the same. I didn't really dig through the aero sections as I don't really understand how this engine works, but looking at the basic numbers (stall speed, max speed, weight, etc), they were both about the same. The only differences I noted were that the update was a bit heavier, and the CoG was changed just slightly.

 

The other thing I noticed was that the update was missing a section called AI Data. I copied that in, and I think it helped a bit, but I can't say conclusively. Will have to test more and do a bit more digging I guess. ....unless anyone has any info or suggestions on this matter. :)

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,557]

The Aero section is the core! the other entries are ... uh ... Randdaten in german

[+kreelin 2]

Guys, a real Cobra (or Pugatchev) manoever changes a very very little your altitude

 

 

@ 2:33 (look at the smoke)

 

@UnknownPilot,

 

- AFAIK the Mig-29 A version (first version) cannot execute a Pugtchev (lack of pitch authority)

 

- I'm not surprised if my TMF F-16 FM update cannot be handled by AI in SFP2 (Fev2010). As MigBuster said, a lot has been changed over the years by TK so they have to be upgraded (don't really have time to do it ).

Edited April 14, 2010 by kreelin

[UnknownPilot 33]

Hey Kreelin. Thanks for the reply.

 

As I said before (can't remember if it's this thread or eslewhere), I'm just seeking the latest and greates that I can find of each, even if it's still limited. Please don't mistake my comments as complaints about you or your work in any way.

 

 

Thanks for the info on the A. I wasn't aware, so that answers that. Which ones could? Would the C do it? Not that I'm obsessed with that move, I'm just curious is all.

 

BTW, I LOVE your Su-27A update. The pit looks better and the handling is amazing. It's tricky as ALL hell now, but that's ok. IIRC I read somewhere that the real things have some sort of pressure system on the stick that lets the pilots know through feel that they are riding those limits, but doesn't prevent them from over-riding it. Would be a bit nicer than just a beep, but as the Cougar is not FF... well, I'll manage. hehe

 

I can perfectly understand being too busy to futher update the F-16A. But I do wish you (or some other FM guru) could. It's a great plane, and while I do have a passion for accuracy, in the absense of any MP capability, it's also nice to have a firebreathing AI too.

 

On a side note... I've been looking for a 29S and K. Are there any out there anywhere, or perhaps planned somewhere?

[+Crusader 2,082]

The updated F-16 data inis are missing one important line in the DetectSystem section :

 

[DetectSystem]

...

RangeUnit=NM <------- add

...

 

This was accidently overwritten during update copy&paste ops

Lack of the RangeUnit makes AI radar totally blind.

[+kreelin 2]

Thanks for the info on the A. I wasn't aware, so that answers that. Which ones could? Would the C do it? Not that I'm obsessed with that move, I'm just curious is all.

 

Not sure but I think the C does it...

 

IIRC I read somewhere that the real things have some sort of pressure system on the stick that lets the pilots know through feel that they are riding those limits, but doesn't prevent them from over-riding it. Would be a bit nicer than just a beep, but as the Cougar is not FF... well, I'll manage. hehe

 

Correct... But I didn't find a way to model the FBW system. So you have to have a look at your AOA :-)