Heat Seeking Missiles

[SDirickson 0]

This has always been a little bit of a pet peeve with me. I've always been impressed with sims that accurately model heat seeking weaponry. Jane's F/A-18 was good about this. A Sidewinder would lock onto aircraft, the sun and even flaming crashsites. On the other hand, Mavericks would lock onto ground targets and even aircraft. Granted, each missile had better performance against the appropriate targets.

 

I was just thinking, how difficult would it be to assign realistic and simple heat values to every significant object in the game? It would create a very realistic systems environment, meaning aircraft mounting primative heat-seekers would have to be very careful when they launch their missiles.

 

It would also mean, pilots running low on stores could attempt to use AGM's against slowmoving cargo aircraft or AAM's against soft targets.

 

Its not a very high priority issue, certainly not one to spend large amounts of code on. Seems like a simple integer value for non critical objects could be used, and for more important things like aircraft and vehicles, intricate heat tables could be used.

 

All told, it would greatly improve the immersion of the sim. You'd have to coach your plane into a chase position, below the target and not pointed towards the sun in order to gain the most succesful shot. It would also really increase the usefulness and realism of nightvision and infrared systems.

 

It would definately be a selling point to have the first really accurate infrared systems in a sim, instead of the normal simple green tinted goggles normally used.

[MBot 0]

I realy like that idea. I always have a little "wow-effects" when I discover such nice details in a sim. Just some days ago in LOMAC, a Sidewinder locked on a previously launched Sidewinder. That was quite cool. Gives you the feeling that you are in a real world with "everything possible". It lets you try things instead of thinking: "Nah, they didn't model that anyway."

 

Also I am very curious about the argentinian used AAMs. The Aim-9B with it's maximum 2g launchlimit and limited envelope. The Magic 1 of wich I don't know much at all. Or the also less known Shafrir 2. I found a nice little quote on that one:

 

-----

Aloni's article (interview with Menachem Sharon, CO 144 Sqn in 1973):

 

"The Shafrir (2) was simply a killer. The American missile guided smoothly, but the Shafrir 2 was opposite - its control was "everything or anything". It gave full control input, corrected the trajectory and stopped. It flew like crazy - we thought it "went ballistic" - and boom, it hit the target. The missiles that were launched smoothly were a faulty ones. About 50% of the missiles hit the targets, and it was an enormous achievement."

 

http://www.acig.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=195&forum=5&8

-----

 

Sound fun :)

Also interesting to note is that although the Aim-9L was an all aspect missler, all 9L fired in the Falklands were all launched from rear aspect ( as far as I know of course ).

I am already very curious on how the different missles will perform on JT.

[jeroen79 0]

I was just thinking, how difficult would it be to assign realistic and simple heat values to every significant object in the game?

 

Not that difficult I suppose.

First you give every object a heatsignature property.

I figure that the heatseeker code would check which objects it can see every x seconds so you program it to involve every object in this check, not just aircraft.

You may have to add some extra code if you wish to model background heat from the ground or sky.

Edited June 22, 2004 by jeroen79

[bad_karma_2one 0]

Very good idea, im not to sure if the argentines had any SARH missiles on their mirages but if they did then it could mean that if you fire an IR missile right after the SARH then it may be a waste of a missile, you would have to be careful about how much time you leave between missiles

[+Fates 63]

Seems to me that whatever you assign a value to, it would have to be a variable. Engines get hotter with thrust output, Flares dissapate heat energy in a short time frame, as well as the fact that the heat value would be varibly increased with distance to target....quite alot of factors involved.

 

<C>

Fates

[Baco-ECv56 0]

Well guys, Argentinian Aircraft did not have Chaff or Flares so theres something less to model ;)

Don´t know ith teh Harriers had chaffs and Flairs thow..

Argentinian Heat Seakers were really outdated and forst generation missiles, both Sharif and Magic. So they were not very reliable.

Their efectivness should be half of that of the AIM 9B. Witch should not be a wonder weapon. Some (a lot fore todays standard) missed badlly. I have hear acounts of winders flying past their target, being ussually the first indication to argentinian pilots that they were being engaged...

 

Mirage III did have SAHR missiles Magic RA 550 I think. Also very clumsy to use in A/A combat since they were design to intercept bombers , no to track and kill fighters. So they should not pose a big threat to the Harriers. Vulcans on the other hand....(for what if scenarios ;))

 

During the ral conflict argentine aircraft did not carry any A/A missiles due to restrictive payload becouse of the long distances flown.

Of course I would love to have thta capability in JT for What if´s sake... But should not be very efective weapons.

[Exocet_Warhead 0]

The Daggers and The Mirage III use Rafael Shafrir II IR-Missiles during the conflict. For example 1st Lt. Jose "Pepe" Ardiles try a shot on a Sea Harrier but he fail

[Exocet_Warhead 0]

Argentinean Daggers carried the Shafrir 2, which could achieve a surprise if used more often, only on two or three occasions. French AAMs, like Matra R.550 Magic Mk.1 and R.530F were carried by Argentinean Mirage IIIEA fighters, but not brought to any use.

 

 

SHAFRIR 2

[+Dante-JT 6]

Seems to me that whatever you assign a value to, it would have to be a variable. Engines get hotter with thrust output, Flares dissapate heat energy in a short time frame, as well as the fact that the heat value would be varibly increased with distance to target....quite alot of factors involved.

 

 

Very good Fates. Indeed I'm specting that Steve will add a variable for heat in each object and a 'scan arch' in each missile, according to its capabilities. So the variable will be a given value at close range, and another values at long ranges, and this will determine how well the missile heat tracker will lock on to a target.

 

We're doing iron bombs launchings at the moment, and behavior when it hits the sea - depending on angle, altitude and speed, the bomb could bump in the water and jump over a ship's deck.

 

Next will be missiles, mostly simple AIM-9B and Shafrir air-launched by A-4s and Daggers. The AIM-9L will require integration with the Ferranti Blue Fox radar system of the Sea Harrier, which we don't have yet much information (please email me at dante@thunder-works.com if you got some material about some of the airborn radars used in the Falklands. Specially Blue Fox and Thomson-CSF Agave.)

[+Fates 63]

Thanks Dante_JT....

 

If you really want to know how the real thing all works...don't forget to listen to the Military's Explanation here:

 

Missle Guidance Systems Explained

 

<C>

Fates

[scary_pigeon 0]

what i am interested to know is more about this shafir2. it is correct that this is the varient in argentinas armoury?

 

the site

 

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/mis...on/Python2.html

 

is in somewhat broken english - but from what I read suggest the israelies use a head mounted cue for the missile.

 

therefore im currious if anybody knows if the argie airforce that uses this missile uses the same targetting system? or is the missile just slaved to gunsite?

 

is a field mod a possibility to upgrade to the israel type targetting system?

 

and what would the missiles behaviour be if the situation was this:

 

you're in a turn looking upwards to the top of your cockpit at a harrier in a sort of turn fight. you're doing drag pursuit.

 

will the missile when launched without lockon still try to fly in the direction you cued to it? and then attempt to gain a lock.

 

if this is so - from my understanding, this missile with that sort of targetting system and behavour would make it potentially very deadly to harriers.

[Baco-ECv56 0]

Well I positivelly know the Argentinian Air Force does not have helmet tracking devices. In 1982 they used the original frrench helmet provided by Dassault Mirage.

 

I should check out if we had Sharif 2 or the earlier versions...

[Baco-ECv56 0]

Well For what I have been told we had Shafir I, not II.

So no helmet aimindg devices in the Mirage III.

 

 

Here is what Gustavo posted in www.ecv56condor.com.ar/Foro :

 

Segun la pagina saorbats teniamos y tenemos Safrir MKIV anteriores al

 

http://www.saorbats.com.ar/GaleriaSaorbats...da%20Aerea.html

 

http://www.saorbats.com.ar/GaleriaSaorbats...CN1303_JPG.html

 

pero comparando las cabezas con lo que se ve en

 

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/mis...on/Python1.html

 

y

 

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/mis...on/Python2.html

 

se ve que es shafrir 2

Tambien coincide con

 

http://www.lamilitary.com/Equipment_RAFAEL_Shafrir_2.html

 

Esta ultima no se que tan seria puede ser

Me parece que la confusion de saorbats viene por el lado de que MkIV era la version del Magic R550 de los MIII EA

 

Saludos

[Exocet_Warhead 0]

Hello Folks

 

It was the SHAFRIR 2 :

 

 

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_158.shtml

 

Adios