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Scout_51

amd 64s

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Ok folks,this is a question for those of you that have ideas on this...Im thinking of getting a new motherboard/cpu combination..Im running a athlon 3000 clocked at 3200..the question is this,would flight sims play smoother with a amd 64 at 3200 or 3400? are there Any advantages to upgrading now or is it better wait a bit till the drivers for updates become available?..

 

Thanks Folks

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If you plan on upgrading, I would suggest getting the 939pin mobo like ASUS's A8V.

 

It can handle the cheaper 64Bit CPU's out there and is setup to handle the more expensive 64fx chips as well.

 

I personlly think the 64bit market is a little confusing at the moment. To many choices.

 

I will be buying a A8V mobo tonite as well as a AMD 64 3500+ 939Pin CPU together for under $500.

 

There are 754, 939, and 940 pin CPU's/Mobo's. I would not buy into the 754 pin CPU/mobo unless you are the type to upgrade every 1-2 years. I feel that these CPU's will become scarce as the market leans to the more efficient dual data 939 pin version. However, I can't afford $600+ just for a CPU at this time. I think AMD has really raised their prices outside of the grasp of joe user.

 

Back to your questions:

 

would flight sims play smoother with a amd 64 at 3200 or 3400? Uh...3400

 

are there Any advantages to upgrading now or is it better wait a bit till the drivers for updates become available? There is never a good time to upgrade. You simply have to drop the ball sometime and just do it. Things change too fast.. However, understanding where the market was yesterday, and where it is today, I would not suggest the 3200 or 3400 unless you buy a MOBO that will support tomoorrow.

 

<C>

Fates

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I personlly think the 64bit market is a little confusing at the moment. To many choices.

 

I will be buying a A8V mobo tonite as well as a AMD 64 3500+ 939Pin CPU together for under $500.

yeah,thats why I did ask,way too many choices...

not a bad price for the whole setup Fates.very nice price..so a 3500 would be fine for at least 2 yrs then?

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Ahh, good time to ask, I just did a lot of research on this. Fates is right, If you want to upgrade, go for the Socket 939. MSI K8T Neo2 Platinum ($154 from newegg.com) is probably the best MB out there for this socket. The 3500+ you can get for $427. With those two, you'll probably be set for at least 2 or 3 years. I can get you more info if you want.

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If you plan on upgrading, I would suggest getting the 939pin mobo like ASUS's A8V.

 

It can handle the cheaper 64Bit CPU's out there and is setup to handle the more expensive 64fx chips as well.

 

I personlly think the 64bit market is a little confusing at the moment.  To many choices.

 

I will be buying a A8V mobo tonite as well as a AMD 64 3500+ 939Pin CPU together for under $500. 

 

 

There are 754, 939, and 940 pin CPU's/Mobo's.  I would not buy into the 754 pin CPU/mobo unless you are the type to upgrade every 1-2 years.  I feel that these CPU's will become scarce as the market leans to the more efficient dual data 940 pin version.  However, I can't afford $600+ just for a CPU at this time.  I think AMD has really raised their prices outside of the grasp of joe user.

 

<C>

Fates

Slight difference in outlook here (bearing in mind I don't mind overclocking & I upgrade/cascade systems down regularly) - I've just bought a socket 754 board & a 3000+ 2.0GHz.

Cost in the UK incl. taxes £165 & according to the forums 2.4GHz (3400+ level should be quite easily achievable & quite possibly 2.5GHz).

A socket 939 3500+ & a 939 mobo would have cost £330 or exactly twice as much.

939 benefits from dual channel but it's exactly the same as on Athlon XP - dual channel gives you about 5% extra performance over single channel.

So double the price for 5% extra - I don't think so ;) (now you can overclock the 3500+ too but you won't get as much extra clockspeed as it's nearer the edge of the envelope to start with))

 

I do agree though that if you were thinking of buying a 3400+ & running stock then the small extra for the 3500+ & 939 mobo makes sense.

 

Socket 754 is here for at least the next 18 months altough supposedly the highest 64 bit capable chip will be the 3700+ but they are going to have socket 754 Semprons over 4000+.

Don't get me wrong - once they start bringing out socket 939 boards with PCI-E & AMD drop prices/introduce lower chips (November?) for 939 I'll be getting a 939 board too. Probably be January before that all shakes out so mean time I get to play & learn on a cheap setup (board & cpu for 2/3 of the cost of a socket 939 CPU only).

& the thing is that Fates' 939 mobo will be obsolete by January too.

 

Fates, I'm sure that you know that socket 940 is really for servers with the extra pin being for error correction.

Also, if you are buying that A8V tonight make sure to get a Rev. 2.0

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ok guys,thanks for all the comments...guess I will stand down on buying a new mb&cpu combo for a few months,just realized after doing some reading i would also have to get a new heatsink/fan..that could also bring the price of the upgrade to a prohibitive level and then the wife just might notice lol

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when it comes right down to it, we're comparing rocks to stones here. Any Athlon64 processor you buy will kick butt. period. Either socket type will make a great upgrade. As of right now, neither board supports DDR2 Ram, or PCIE. So the real question is not so much which one will give the best performace, but rather, do you want to spend the extra money now for a few more years use out of the motherboard, thus making it better in the long run. If you say yes, get a socket 939. If you say no, get socket 754.

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Hey Scout,

 

Well, I try to get the most bang for my buck that means I tend to look for combinations that work well together an can be tweeked for overclocking. That requires MBs that give me access to Ext Clock, Multiplier Factor, N/B Strap, Dram Ratio, AGP Ratio, AGP/PCI Frequency an CPU, DDR SDRAM an AGP Voltages.

 

Well lets see I guess the big question is how much cash do you feel like spending?

Are you feeling like its time for a major upgrade or are you looking for a quick fix for something specfic?

 

Do you mind going to a Pent 4 chipset? Or are you planning to stick with AMD. Ive read so many benchmarks on different MB an Processors combos its hard to believe what anyone is actually saying without testing the actual hardware yourself. Im sure the 64bit chips run excellent but then again the high end P4s run damn well too.

 

Also the P4s have better overclocking ability an thats a plus when you conisider that you can easly overclock a P4 2.6 to 3.2 or 3.3 with stock cooling. Youll never do that with an AMD. On the other hand both chips perform equally well on many benchmarks with slight differences but I highly doubt that the casual user would notice that if they were both high end to middle high end chips.

 

The important things are the combinations of Hardware you want to use together. P4s clock well if you have the right motherboard an memory. AMDs run fast as they are as they are pushed pretty hard right out of the factory. Explaining how the chips actually work requires alot of reading an I would start picking up PC Modders mag or something along that lines to get a good idea of how everything works.

 

P4s an AMDs have a FPO/Batch #s that can be tracked down an compared against other chipsets for better overclocking results. Some chips even if theyre both the same as far as speed overclock better than others depending on when an where they were made. There are specfic sites for that task that show you the overclocking ability of certain chips by FPO/Batch #s. By finding specfic chips you can increase your chances of finding a chip that clocks really high.

 

You can find FPO/Batch #s here:

http://www.overclockers.com/

 

Within the next few months give or take you will start seeing more 64big MBs an PCI Express. I believe there is at least 1 MB that supports PCI Express at this time. Im sure along with the introduction of the 64bit OS you will see major leaps in performace across the board.

 

Ive had a number of AMDs an Pents. I wont say anything against either chips but I can say for a fact that P4s are more forgiving when it comes to overclocking an even more when it comes to RAID 0. Many times the AMD required a fresh reinstall of the OS when I decided to push too far. The P4s on the other hand tend to let you know long before they currupt the OS that they are not stable.

 

Now you said you already have a AMD 3000. What type of other hardware do you have you might think about a upgrading your video right now. Any way you look at it you have to know that what you buy today will be outdated in weeks by hardware standards. It changes too fast to keep up with. Also you have to remember certain games tend to depend on the CPU. So you need a good combination with Vid an CPU.

 

You still cant take advantage of the 64bit extentions without a 64bit OS. It will be some time till then. I would go with what Fates says an get a 939pin Mobo . Also remember that PCI Express x16 an x4 will be coming out an I really think thats where alot of the bottleneck is right now with graphics.

 

Raptor pointed out a nice combo too but also remember you should upgrade your video. All the 256 new gen cards run well an that will def boost your flight sim performance. You can look at spending at least 350+ for a new 256 card. Personally I would go with a Gforce 6800 GT 256. For the money you get 16 pipes an Dir-X9c support. ATI doesnt support that as of yet. The GT is $399.00 compared to the ATI X800 Pro which is the same price but with 12 pipes compared to the GT which has 16.

 

Personally I would wait right now till the new features come out an there actually supported. That means 64bit OS, PCI Express and DDR 2. The prices will drop down on CPUs as these other features become more available. You have alot of choices out there right now but if you can wait till the above features come out an get the upgrade your really looking for.

 

Trying to stay 2 years current is pretty hard with the Tech curve getting shorter an shorter you could do a major upgrade every 3 to 6 months. Good luck with that.

 

I built this system with the intention of lasting till Xmas before a major upgrade. I did upgrade my video an memory but that was basically for testing only not with the intention of using it in my next system. Theres 4 systems in my home an I try to use any hardware left over for other systems so basically nothing is lost. The memory an video hardware are always pushed back to the next system in line. Its the cheapest way to keep everything semi current or decent for performance.

 

Like I said get the most bang for your buck. To get the lastest an greatest you have to pay but remember you can get kick ass performance by taking your time searching the net an finding the hardware combos that actually perform as well or better than the latest an greatest.

 

Raptors last post pretty much sums it up.

 

My system spec an prices are listed. These prices are basically what I paid at the time of purchass. Im sure you can find it cheaper now.

 

Abit IC7 Max 3 $200.00

P4 2.6 @ 3320 800 sys bus $175.00

ATI X800 Pro $420.00

2 gigs of Mushkin 3500 DDR @ 2.5-7-2-2 cap of 2.5-6-2-2 $680.00 plus shipping.

Twin 80gig Western Digital Caviar WD800JB SE (Raid-0 Config) $80.00 each.

Audigy 2 $80.00

500 Watt Enermax EG651P-VE $130.00

 

Total give or take: $3320.00. You can do much better now.

 

Performance wise it does well with all games old an new.

 

3Dmark03: 10,700 with stock cooling.

 

R/S

Creepy847

Semper Fi.

 

PS. Sorry I made this so long.

Edited by Creepy847

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Now you said you already have a AMD 3000. What type of other hardware do you have you might think about a upgrading your video right now. Any way you look at it you have to know that what you buy today will be outdated in weeks by hardware standards. It changes too fast to keep up with. Also you have to remember certain games tend to depend on the CPU. So you need a good combination with Vid an CPU.

 

You still cant take advantage of the 64bit extentions without a 64bit OS. It will be some time till then. I would go with what Fates says an get a 939pin Mobo . Also remember that PCI Express x16 an x4 will be coming out an I really think thats where alot of the bottleneck is right now with graphics

no need to aspologizxe guy,it was Very helpful,intelligent and well thought out...the other hardware, ok a ati 9800,the amd clocked to 3200,a nicve big tall cooler tha does good..1 gig ram,400 dual chanel kingston..I understand about buying something gets outdated weeks latter,like buying a new car and taking the hit on cost after you drive it off lot..ok so if Im understanding this,I can't go wrong getting the amd 64 in most flavors right?..pci,gee seems like yesterday that agp was the hot slot! lol..im dating myself ok.you All made good sense,were rather helpful,I do appreciate it...

 

Scouts Out!

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Also the P4s have better overclocking ability an thats a plus when you conisider that you can easly overclock a P4 2.6 to 3.2 or 3.3 with stock cooling. Youll never do that with an AMD.

I'll argue that - you can get a 1.8GHz Athlon xp-m to do 2.8 with a $15 heatsink =55% overclock.

2.6>3.3 = 27% which is the same as taking a 1.83Ghz XP2500+ to 2.3GHz which is doable on the stock HSF.

 

XP 64 bit is out now in Beta form - the latest build just went up for dl the other day - & expected retail early 05.

& of course there is no doubt that for gamers the AMD64 is the best platform to play 32 bit games on (possible exceptions being any game that can use hyper-threading but afaik they are very few & far between).

I don't expect to see any benefit from 16x for Vga for some considerable time as 8x is nowhere near it's limit at the moment.

PCI-E on AMD64 should be available in stores in a couple of months though.

 

Don't expect to see AMD supporting DDR2 for a year or so - there is even a suggestion that they may skip it entirely & jump to DDR3 (which should show benefits on their platform). Whereas P4s love very high fsb & the extra bandwidth AMDs don't benefit in the same way.

So why should AMD promote a product that offers them far fewer benefits compared to its rival when instead it can promote the fact that you can use your existing DDR thereby keeping upgrade costs down?

 

It's never the right time to upgrade but now is a particularly bad time because there is so much flux in progress/due across so many aspects of hardware.

 

Like Creepy, I have several systems & cascade parts down & then eventually out to the family .

I've decided to keep off the bleeding edge but usually 1 step down/behind - it's a lot cheaper without necessarily being a lot slower (but then I'm prepared to overclock & I certainly don't expect to leave a system untouched & intact for 2 years).

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(but then I'm prepared to overclock & I certainly don't expect to leave a system untouched & intact for 2 years).

no of course not,I like o/c'ing myself..and untoching a system is like a clean desk,the sign of a sick mind...... :rolleyes:

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Buff Ive never had much luck with the AMDs as far as overclocking. And I should have stated my post as that. I have heard many folks say they have been able to clock the AMDs that high but I have failed to actually see any of my buddies get them that high an be 100% stable.

 

I base overclocking on not just benchmarking scores but actual stability. That means playing all games from A to Z an not having crashes that are due to cpu heat issues or memory speed of CAS timing issues or anything else.

 

Certain games such as MOH, Flight Sim 2004 and Joint Ops have a tendency to crash if Im clocked too high. I have spent days an days testing my config over an over to find that sweet spot. I can honestly say that every single game I have runs perfect. There was a time when I would reboot just to make a bios change so I could play a game without issues. That got old after awhile so I stayed with the setting that allowed perfect operation or as close as I could get it.

 

Im not sure if you run Raid-0 but that was a big pain in the ass for me. The Raid failed or the OS got currupted too many times when I was pushing it. Unlocking the AMDs was a pain in the ass an even after going thru that s**t it still wouldnt show any worthwhile gains. Im not up to date on the AMDs now an the new MBs that support them. Ive been caught in that P4 state of mind for abit now but like I said before. P4s are much more forgiving to me.

 

XP 64s are impressive but then again the P4 Extreme chip is pretty nice too. Im still not willing to pay hundreds of dollars for a either of these. I will wait till Jan before thinking about a complete upgrade. Personally like I said I believe the bottleneck right now is the AGP. Whether PCI-E fixes that issue who knows.

 

Now as far as you stating this:

 

You can get a 1.8GHz Athlon xp-m to do 2.8 with a $15 heatsink =55% overclock.

 

Have you personally manage to get the 1.8 Athlon XP-m to 2.8 stable?

 

If you can you send me a personal message with your system specs. Ill ask my buddy if he has any in stock an if so I will test this myself. I know that the Xp-m have great overclocking potenial with the chip already unlocked from the factory.

 

I did read about one guy actually getting the chip to 2912MHz perfectly stable with 2.1V, but that was only benchmarking.

 

I think his highest clock was 3079Mhz. You have to remember he was using water cooling which is a mod alot of casual tweekers dont want to get involved in. He was already loosing PS2 ports and the floppy drive when the FPS bus was over 240

combined with a high CPU speed of 2800MHz or higher, and a high vcore.

 

And I doubt he was 100 stable for actual gaming at those speeds.

 

I have BM my system with the FSB @260 but it wasnt stable for your average applications. Getting thru the benchmark is one thing actual gaming an other apps are something else never mind the fact that you are using a standard HS an keeping the system running day in day out.

 

I dont think he was using Raid-0 either. The Raid controller is another potenial weak point for extreme OC. Still considering 2.4 is about 200MHz faster than the Athlon XP 3200+ which cost about $200.00

 

I agree with AMDs stand on DDR2 no point to it.

 

As far as the AMD xp-m goes, for $98.00 its a damn good buy an you know your def getting a super high qualitiy chip. Getting a 55% gain on it is something Ill have to see for myself if I can find the right chip. Max an I will have to experiment with this tommorow if he has any in stock. If he does we will exp with this for awhile an see what we come up with. Ill post my results when we are finished.

 

Thanks.

 

R/S

Creepy847

Semper Fi.

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Buff Ive never had much luck with the AMDs as far as overclocking. And I should have stated my post as that. I have heard many folks say they have been able to clock the AMDs that high but I have failed to actually see any of my buddies get them that high an be 100% stable.

 

I base overclocking on not just benchmarking scores but actual stability. That means playing all games from A to Z an not having crashes that are due to cpu heat issues or memory speed of CAS timing issues or anything else.

 

Certain games such as MOH, Flight Sim 2004 and Joint Ops have a tendency to crash if Im clocked too high. I have spent days an days testing my config over an over to find that sweet spot. I can honestly say that every single game I have runs perfect. There was a time when I would reboot just to make a bios change so I could play a game without issues. That got old after awhile so I stayed with the setting that allowed perfect operation or as close as I could get it.

 

Im not sure if you run Raid-0 but that was a big pain in the ass for me. The Raid failed or the OS got currupted too many times when I was pushing it. Unlocking the AMDs was a pain in the ass an even after going thru that s**t it still wouldnt show any worthwhile gains. Im not up to date on the AMDs now an the new MBs that support them. Ive been caught in that P4 state of mind for abit now but like I said before. P4s are much more forgiving to me.

 

XP 64s are impressive but then again the P4 Extreme chip is pretty nice too. Im still not  willing to pay hundreds of dollars for a either of these. I will wait till Jan before thinking about a complete upgrade. Personally like I said I believe the bottleneck right now is the AGP. Whether PCI-E fixes that issue who knows.

 

Now as far as you stating this:

 

You can get a 1.8GHz Athlon xp-m to do 2.8 with a $15 heatsink =55% overclock.

 

Have you personally manage to get the 1.8 Athlon XP-m to 2.8 stable?

 

If you can you send me a personal message with your system specs. Ill ask my buddy if he has any in stock an if so I will test this myself. I know that the Xp-m have great overclocking potenial with the chip already unlocked from the factory.

 

I did read about one guy actually getting the chip to 2912MHz perfectly stable with 2.1V, but that was only benchmarking.

 

I think his highest clock was 3079Mhz. You have to remember he was using water cooling which is a mod alot of casual tweekers dont want to get involved in. He was already loosing PS2 ports and the floppy drive when the FPS bus was over 240

combined with a high CPU speed of 2800MHz or higher, and a high vcore.

 

And I doubt he was 100 stable for actual gaming at those speeds.

 

I have BM my system with the FSB @260 but it wasnt stable for your average applications. Getting thru the benchmark is one thing actual gaming an other apps are something else never mind the fact that you are using a standard HS an keeping the system running day in day out.

 

I dont think he was using Raid-0 either. The Raid controller is another potenial weak point for extreme OC.  Still considering 2.4 is about 200MHz faster than the Athlon XP 3200+ which cost about $200.00

 

I agree with AMDs stand on DDR2 no point to it.

 

As far as the AMD xp-m goes, for $98.00 its a damn good buy an you know your def getting a super high qualitiy chip. Getting a 55% gain on it is something Ill have to see for myself if I can find the right chip. Max an I will have to experiment with this tommorow if he has any in stock. If he does we will exp with this for awhile an see what we come up with. Ill post my results when we are finished.

 

Thanks.

 

R/S

Creepy847

Semper Fi.

 

From what you have said though you haven't run an AMD for several years though in the same way that I haven't run a current Intel for several years (still got a PII 400/V5 for older games :)). For the last few years (since the T'bred "B"s arrived) getting great overclocks from mid-range chips was easy especially as up to last summer they were multi unlocked ex-factory too - 1.47GHz chips would regularly do 2.2GHz with very little effort & more if you were lucky. Then along came the XP2500+ as the next value overclocker & then of course once AMD multi locked desktop chips the XP-Ms came into vogue which of course not only are unlocked but start off using less voltage too.

 

I don't run RAID anymore - other than quicker loading of game levels I never saw any real world performance improvement in the apps. that I use & of course it is 2x the hardware cost & 2x the risk.

I never had any problems myself - afaik if people have a problem with OS corruption it's usually a memory problem (even if it's the user trying to run too tight for his memory/fsb) although some people have run into problems with PCI Bus saturation (which the ICHR5 obviously avoids).

 

As I've said myself I too reckon that January should see a lot of thing settling into place although I disagree that AGP is a bottleneck currently. The future is PCI-E though & by then both camps should have boards supporting it available as well as the 2 gfx camps having good availability of cards for it.

 

Yes, I have personally got an XP-M to 2.8GHz stable air-cooled but I admit to not actually running it at that day -to-day as the sound of fans at that level is a bit much ;) (it's usually 2.5-2.6GHz)

I know that several people have had over 3.1GHz on extreme cooling.

 

If you really want the specs I can give them to you by all means but at this stage I wouldn't advise anybody to put money (or time) into socket A even though I still believe that in value terms you can't touch an overclocked nForce2/XP-M combo - it's at its peak & there is no future upgrade to it. For very little extra you can get a socket 754 3000+ which I am readily assured (can't speak from personal experience quite yet) should most likely do 2.4GHz & an AMD64 at 2.4 will beat an XP-M at 2.4 & that's even without any future benefits from 64 bit coming into it.

 

Certainly other devices not being able to handle very high fsb (I've been in Windows at 265/530fsb which isn't bad for a chip that is default 133/266 but I certainly wouldn't have called it Prime stable) isn't unknown but of course with an unlocked chip you can always increase the multi & lower the fsb & you are certainly going to need to up Vcore for those speeds.

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Buff thx for the reply. Im sure anything is possible it depends on how lucky you get an how much research an time your willing to put into each combo.

 

I talked to Max today an he doesnt have the 1.8m in stock but he said he might have a chip thats 2.0 an unlocked from the factory. Before I go further I need to clearify this but Ill let you know. Today the store was crazy so I didnt get to talk to him very long as I had to leave.

 

If you can plz send me your spec's as Ill use that for a guide line for s**ts an giggles. Im doing alittle research into this chip now an of course I like what Im seeing already, basically because the price of the chip an even more the quality.

I have enough stuff around to make another system by just buying that proc an board.

 

Again thx for the good insite it def sounds like you know from exp. Ill post in here an keep you up to date on my results. This will be something Ill be tinkering with here an there when I have time.

 

Also let me know how you like that 6800GT.

 

R/S

Creepy847

Semper Fi.

 

PS. I have 3 computers here running AMD's. ;-)

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will be buying a A8V mobo tonite as well as a AMD 64 3500+ 939Pin CPU together for under $500

guess its time to ask,hows the new rig working out???

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