EW Radar No Effect?

[Lt. James Cater]

I was looking at another thread and someone said that Barlocks and such don't do anything and are nothing but targets for ARMs.

 

Is it true?

 

If so, i sure as hell wasted a whole lot of time and effort planning routes to avoid radar coverage.

[Faust_]

I was looking at another thread and someone said that Barlocks and such don't do anything and are nothing but targets for ARMs.

 

Is it true?

 

If so, i sure as hell wasted a whole lot of time and effort planning routes to avoid radar coverage.

 

 

Early warning radar provide long range detection for red crown to warn you and direct you the proximity of bogies.

 

so the same to sam direction radars

 

seem that air search radar in airfields has no capability to do so.

 

if you fly in a large empty space near a bogie, if there aren't any mean of detection, red crown has no way to warn you and largely the bogie pass unnoticed, the moment that you lock on it by you own onboard radar, red crown is noticed and warn you of the hostiles.

 

if you looked for the barlock data INI, you can see that it has a range of detection of 250(km)

 

so, in very small theatres full of sams and others radars, may have a overlapping coverage that seem that avoid a specific radar haven't a much effect concealing your flight, but degrading the radar coverage may create a free zones of detection and direction of enemy interceptors.

 

one of the problem with the early warning and direction of red crown is that the longest call that it make is just 50miles no matters if the target is detected by a radar further away (example, a target may be at 120miles but red crown says that is 50miles)

[FrankD]

Hello Lt. James Cater,

 

as far as I actually know (aka "learnt from the founts of knowledge around"), the Barlock radar isn't networked by default.

 

That, mean I think, that only itself know when it detects something as it doesn't share the infos.

 

Cheers

 

PS: ouch, I've been Fausted

Edited December 28, 2010 by FrankD

[+Fubar512]

Early warning radar provide long range detection for red crown to warn you and direct you the proximity of bogies.

 

Redcrown makes calls bandit calls based on one of two factors: When an enemy flight is within visual detection parameters of a friendly flight, or, when an enemy flight is detected by either you, or one of your wingmen on radar.

 

Ground-based radars have absolutely nothing to do with Redcrown, as I've seen SAMs and AAA engage bandits well before Redcrown acknowledged their presence.

 

And it's been that way since the series came out in 2002.

[Faust_]

hello FrankD... good point about the network...

 

 

the barlock is datalinked by default

 

DetectSystem]

TargetType=AIR

RadarSearchTime=10.0

RadarSearchRange=250000.0

RadarSearchStrength=80

RadarPosition=0.0,0.0,2.30

RadarMinimumRange=2500.0

RadarMinimumAlt=1000.0

DataLink=TRUE

OpticalSight=FALSE

MaxVisibleDistance=8000.0

RadarCrossSection=100

 

so, any closer that 250000 meters that a barlock (one big thing like a B-36 or zeppelins ) must be detected and pass the info to red crown

[Faust_]

Redcrown makes calls bandit calls based on one of two factors: When an enemy flight is within visual detection parameters of a friendly flight, or, when an enemy flight is detected by either you, or one of your wingmen on radar.

 

that's true

 

as I've seen SAMs and AAA engage bandits well before Redcrown acknowledged their presence.

 

that's true too..

 

 

Ground-based radars have absolutely nothing to do with Redcrown,

 

And it's been that way since the series came out in 2002.

 

well, in my recent experience about the early detections, in a empty theatre, a bogie near an airfield has been engaged by AAA. but no red crown call was made.

 

but nearby a sam (example a add-on nike site) red crown warned me about the bogie

 

i think that if you specific the network that the radar belongs, example: datalink:TRUE network:AAA the info is passed only to that network

 

but if no specified, the info is shared to red crown and warns you.

 

just some days ago, I received a red crown warning of bogies in my area by a barlock of 50 miles when really the bogie was almost 100miles away of my position, and when I asked to radio to TCC he gave me the bearing and the same distance

 

well, a thing to test soon again, i think

[Lt. James Cater]

Perhaps i should have been a bit more specific. I meant Warsaw Pact EW radars. In some areas in WOE i know where there are Barlocks and on certain strikes i've done everything possible to avoid exposing myself to them during the ingress. If they aren't networked, i'd sure like to find out how to change that if possible.

[Faust_]

you tried a low altitude nap-to-the-earth attack?

 

I think that the germany map in WOE is small enough for exist a certain degree of overlapping radar coverage (if fubar512's statement isn't exact)

 

just simply dodging it will not work

 

the 2nd way is degrading the coverage by mean of hardkill (throwing things at)

 

the 3rd way is degrading the coverage by mean of some magic (Electronic jamming & chaffing)

 

the 4th way is using stealth aircraft

 

 

editing and cheating the network is unfair (well, the life is unfair too...so)

 

 

PS: Pest is Best!

Edited December 28, 2010 by Faust_

[Fuza]

YOu might have read a thread started by me and replied by the others tellign you that!

The Red Crown calls out bogies at 50nm away ALWAYS! This is "an limitation" of the game. No matter the bogies are at 60 70 or 100nm, Red Crown always call out bogies at 50 miles.

 

If you want engress without ground threat, you should fly very low.

My experience could have been wrong, but I played Typhoon before. Normally your bomb flight will be at 500 feet hugging the ground. As you engress you raise to 1500ft assuming your dropping dumb bombs. For LGB you must be at 4500 to 7000 ft.

 

However you have brought up a good topics for research.

If I were you I would use Wrench Empty DEserrt to test out the "LINK" of EWR

 

By the way the game theatre is 1,000,000 meters times 1,000,000 meters which is 500nm X 500nm. So you use 2 Barlock will be sufficient for any "Early Warning".

Edited December 28, 2010 by Fuza

[Fuza]

 

just some days ago, I received a red crown warning of bogies in my area by a barlock of 50 miles when really the bogie was almost 100miles away of my position, and when I asked to radio to TCC he gave me the bearing and the same distance

 

well, a thing to test soon again, i think

 

I used Wrench empty theatre, what you said is working fine! I was 210nm from the F-4J and Red Crwon calls out the bogie position.

[+Fubar512]

Again, ONLY AIRBORNE RADARS serve to detect other flights BVR. Ground based radars do nothing, other than serve as ARM magnets, and direct AAA (if one knows how to set them up) and/or SAMs of the same type as the radar's network. They DO NOT provide early warning to aircraft.

 

Want to settle this? Ask the question at ThirdWire's site, and see what TK says.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Fubar512

[Lexx_Luthor]

You know Fubar, somebody may have to invent the Fake AEW; say, a tweaked single AI A-4 spawning near map edge with 2000km radar range, 360 radar arc, starting at high altitude with no fuel, or zero thrust, but with very low mass so it drops to Earth slowly like feather (can't have it flying toward targets). And time another one to spawn when the first "AEW-4" finally feathers in. Something like that.

 

btw Fubar, does this Redcrown thing require the radar "surveillance" AI aircraft to be RHM armed? I suspect it does. I wonder if the Fluffup of radar surveillance is one big reason why TK does not respond well to Korean War game threads for the *current* game. I hope the future F-14 game is the perfect vehicle for new radar sim programming starting from flour.

 

I'm stuck at SF-2006, and I've found a way to help AI aircraft "see" far away and that is to spawn, far above the path of an incoming enemy strike, a "fake" enemy AI plane at say 1000km altitude with zero thrust but map size visibility distance. When the intercept AI come nearer the fake target, the real strike aircraft become the focus because....the AI switch to a closer target. I didn't know that until now. Very useful...!

[+Fubar512]

You know Fubar, somebody may have to invent the Fake AEW; say, a tweaked single AI A-4 spawning near map edge with 2000km radar range, 360 radar arc, starting at high altitude with no fuel, or zero thrust, but with very low mass so it drops to Earth slowly like feather (can't have it flying toward targets).

 

btw Fubar, does this Redcrown thing require the radar "surveillance" AI aircraft to be RHM armed?

 

Already been done (with AWACs), and no, it doesn't have to be armed with RHMs, or anything for that matter. Just an A2A radar in search mode. Virtual RHMs are needed only if one wishes to see a "dedicated" AWACs symbol on a TEWs RWR screen.

 

The only drawback is that it only works (reliably) in scripted missions.

[Lexx_Luthor]

Thanks I'll look up the AWACS stuff.

 

Yea I know about the scripted mission limitation, but I only do scripted stuff.

 

Campaigns: Couldn't a heavily tweaked AI plane be given some kind of mission, restricted to a "large" airbase far from operations, the only "large" base on a map, and have it work as sorta AWACS? Maybe make its top speed 100km/hr so it never gets to the fight? I have no idea how TK's campaigns work.

 

I've asked TK several times about a simple map-wide mission combat events text output file, so the modders can program their own dynamic campaign engines using that data from a previous mission game run.

[Lt. James Cater]

you tried a low altitude nap-to-the-earth attack?

 

I think that the germany map in WOE is small enough for exist a certain degree of overlapping radar coverage (if fubar512's statement isn't exact)

 

just simply dodging it will not work

 

the 2nd way is degrading the coverage by mean of hardkill (throwing things at)

 

the 3rd way is degrading the coverage by mean of some magic (Electronic jamming & chaffing)

 

the 4th way is using stealth aircraft

 

 

editing and cheating the network is unfair (well, the life is unfair too...so)

 

 

PS: Pest is Best!

 

 

Actually, in WOE there is one spot on the map that gives low level radar free access to the enemy backyard.

http://combatace.com/gallery/image/17304-img00714jpg/

 

You come in right over the trees, dead center on this route and it's like you vanished off the face of the earth and reappeared where they least expected it. I've flown it countless times on strike and recce missions. On egress it's also a godsend since there are no defenses anywhere in the area. You can go low and fast to outrun MIGs back to the front without worry about groundfire.

 

It's pretty much the WOE equivalent of Thud Ridge.

[Romflyer]

Actually, in WOE there is one spot on the map that gives low level radar free access to the enemy backyard.

http://combatace.com...04-img00714jpg/

 

You come in right over the trees, dead center on this route and it's like you vanished off the face of the earth and reappeared where they least expected it. I've flown it countless times on strike and recce missions. On egress it's also a godsend since there are no defenses anywhere in the area. You can go low and fast to outrun MIGs back to the front without worry about groundfire.

 

It's pretty much the WOE equivalent of Thud Ridge.

 

 

Is there any chance that you could show where that location is on a Planning map......like this one?

 

Cheers

 

[FrankD]

It looks to me to be the grid 60-40, between Zlatec and Altenburg-Nobitz.

 

PS: interestingly, the grid SE of it, grid 70-30, is supposed to be the Czech "SAM free" zone from the Cold War.

 

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2008/09/czechoslovakian-strategic-air-defense.html

Edited December 29, 2010 by FrankD

[Lt. James Cater]

It looks to me to be the grid 60-40, between Zlatec and Altenburg-Nobitz.

 

PS: interestingly, the grid SE of it, grid 70-30, is supposed to be the Czech "SAM free" zone from the Cold War.

 

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2008/09/czechoslovakian-strategic-air-defense.html

 

You are correct!

 

That area has been my doorway for a long time. Take off and go for altitude as quick as reasonably possible to preserve fuel. Head towards it at a decent throttle setting and keep an eye out for enemy fighters. Once over the town at the base of it, drop the nose and head for the weeds.

 

Once you get to the end there are all kinds of target areas to the north that can be approached by flying a route in between multiple SAM sites. Just stay away from built up areas as some towns have lots of AAA.