German Mirage III upgrade programme

[+KnightWolf45 1,147]

sounds good and no need to rebluid a full aircraft in Rl or 3D max.

go for it i think i can use this in some plans of mine

[PraetorH 166]

sounds good and no need to rebluid a full aircraft in Rl or 3D max.

go for it i think i can use this in some plans of mine

 

Huh? What are you planning?

 

 

Anyway gents,

 

 

 

I just finished a series of test flights with my Mirage IIIG (77). I still have to work on it a bit. However the basics worked out pretty well.

 

The Avon engine is a blast! The Mirage now climbs a homesick angel and it hardly ever stops accelerating. Australia really missed a chance here. Of course, the Mirage is still a delta-wing and thus its sustained turn is still suboptimal, nevertheless one can push the aircraft much harder now.

 

The radar is rather average as you know, and the SARS are mediocre as well, but they work as intended, which is enough for me. Actually, the double rails for the missiles are what significantly increases the Mirage's combat capability. The Mauser BK27 provide an additional increase since they butcher away anything in front of them. Due to the higher rate of fire the ammo is running out sooner though.

 

With the camo I admittedly went too far using a Norm 90J-like camo. However it is not entirely unthinkable considering Luftwaffe's extensive trials with grays and contemporary new US camo (for the Eagle e.g.). It is just that the historically better suited all-grey is not visually pleasing.

 

Overall I am more than pleased! Thanks again for your help and thoughts. Comments and ideas are always welcome.

[+KnightWolf45 1,147]

watt im i planing if it gets out in time using it to replace the F-4F in my news flash from the desert campaing that all.

Edited March 13, 2011 by cocas

[+Gunrunner 314]

One last thing, let's talk weight (it may influence performances and range).

 

The original Atar 9C weighed 1430kg, an Avon 301R without AB 1309kg, most informations about AB section for Avon engines I could find place it between 400kg and 500kg, so let's arbitrarily decide on adding 450kg.

 

Atar : 1430kg

Avon : 1759kg

 

Engine weight difference : +329kg

Total weight difference : +329kg

 

Next, we remove the doppler navigation radar, useless on an interceptor, the data I have suggest a weight of roughly 500kg.

 

Avionics weight difference : -500kg

Total weight difference : -171kg

 

Then, the guns, ignoring the length difference (the BK 27 is apparently 60cm longer), let's concentrate on weight, all things being more or less equal, Wikipedia's suggested weights seem right, hence :

 

DEFA 552 : 85kg + 125*220g = 112.5kg

BK 27 : 100kg + 125*260g = 132.5kg

 

Guns weight difference : +40kg

Total weight difference : -131kg

 

Now to the radar.

 

Cyrano II : 188kg

Cyrano IV : 217kg

 

Radar weight difference : +29kg

Total weight difference : -102kg

 

Let's not forget the added weight of a more modern ejection seat plus additional avionics, RWR systems and you should end up a few hundred kilos above the original Mirage IIIE weight if, and only if, you remove the doppler navigation radar, otherwise you'd end up close to a ton over the original weight.

 

On another note, the Mirage IIICJ2 could have been used instead of the IIIE, depending on the backstory (whether the germans originally procured IIIC or IIIE airframes).

[FrankD 7]

another alternative engine was the Rolls-Royce Spey, as offered to the Royal Air Force under the Mirage IIIK designation.

 

Spey Mk 202

 

• Length: 204.9 in (5204.4 mm)
• Diameter: 43.0 in (1092.2 mm)
• Dry weight: 4,093 lb (1856 kg)
• Maximum thrust: 12,690 lbf (56.4 kN) dry/16,360 lbf (72.8 kN) with reheat

 

It was highly reliable and have been built under license by some countries, so why not Germany. It also powered the Brit Phantoms and, in its civilian version, and even, in a specific version, ships, so the know how may not be lost at the end of the German Mirage story, a good point for politicians.

 

About the radar, the Agave (used by the Super Etendard and thus possibly allowing the MarineFlieger to have fun with AM.39) or the Cyrano IVM (used by the Mirage F1) could have been fitted, as it was suggested with the Mirage 50.

For the max T/O weight, please be advised that the Mirage III NG/50 was at 14700 kg, a good ton over the "regular" III.

PS: About SARM, there was a Red Top subvariant using semi-active radar homing, called Blue Dolphin or Blue Jay Mk. V, but this was cancelled in 1958. What about a wake up call from Germany? Both countries share the same pleasure of enjoying pristine blue sky all year long (...) and cooperation on engines may encourage further relationship.

PSbis: if you got a Cyrano IVM, how difficult could it be to get Super 530F (1980)?

Edited March 19, 2011 by FrankD

[PraetorH 166]

Highly interesting stuff gentlemen

 

The basis for the Mirage IIIG, and consequently my Mirage IIIG (77), is a IIIE, for two reasons: first PGC made it so and I am working with that. Second, he is actually correct in doing so. The Luftwaffe required the double role of nuclear striker (yes, nuclear) and air defence fighter to kill Soviet attackers breaking through the HAWK/NIKE line. In public, the German government emphasized the latter of course

 

I think I got to remove the doppler nav radar to save weight. This Mirage is not needed in AG-missions anyway, it is exclusively for the two fighter wings Luftwaffe had, JG 71 "Richthofen" and JG 74 "Mölders". The fighter bomber wings and the naval wings get the MRCA/Tornado as planned.

 

I also decided not to put in an internal ECM, but it will be capable of using US and French ECM pods. The Luftwaffe bought these pods in great quantity during the Yom Kippur war, when they realized how vulnerable their aircraft were against modern SAMs. I figured an effective ECM might be too heavy/large to be carried internally, or is not?

Also, would it be possible getting more ammo for the BK in somehow?

 

Both, the Super 530F and a British-German coperation for a new all-weather missile are not bad ideas! I will think about it.

Edited March 19, 2011 by PraetorHonoris

[Viggen 644]

Mirage IIIG is actually a really, really cool idea! I've been following the progress of this closely. This is a "what if" where everything is being taken into consideration.

[+Gunrunner 314]

For ECM gear, I lack dimensions and weight, however by removing the navigation radar you end up with a space you could allocate to ECM gear, the rest is wiring and antenna, so you probably have the space if you can find the gear that will fit in, I'll see what info I can get on the topic.

As for weight, with the more powerful Avon, if you are ready to trade a little performance and ordnance capacity for security, you can afford it while retaining range and performance above the original Mirage IIIE.

I just checked and there's certainly not enough space, the navigation radar being mostly "external"; Your best bet then to have internal ECM gear would be into the keel, however that means losing fuel capacity.

You'd go from 2915kg to 2370kg (on the data.ini it's labelled RearBottomTank), that's almost a 20% reduction in fuel capacity.

It would however liberate 545kg and a 500 liters volume.

As an interceptor, would range or protection matter more ?

 

Getting more ammo for the guns seem a tad more difficult, ammo for the BK has a marginally lower diameter but is both longer and heavier; Let's imagine those two aren't a factor and visualize our ammo in a line, each round separated by 15mm :

(125*(30+15))-15 = 5610mm now let's calculate what that would make with 27mm rounds...

 

(x*(27+15))-15 = 5610

42x = 5595

x = 133,2

 

So, assuming no other constraint than the length of the link feed and no extra space for ammunition, you could have up to 133 rounds per gun.

On the weight side, that would mean adding 4.16kg, a marginal enough increase for the possibility of getting one more kill.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Gunrunner

[PraetorH 166]

You are right Gunrunner, an interceptor would need the fuel rather than the ECM, especially as it was to operate behind or above the own Hawk/Nike-line. I will limit the ECM to a pod.

8 Rounds more may not sound like much, but they can make the difference between a kill or not, so I go for it.

 

Thanks Viggen! The Mirage fort he Luftwaffe is a quite likely what-if, since it was the most promising contender to the Starfighter. It is only natural asking how this bird would have developed in Luftwaffe-service since it had plenty of upgrade possibilities.

 

I am going to hold this project for a short time. A small break makes it possible to restart freshly and see errors one did not see as one cannot see the wood for the trees. In the meantime I persue a less historically accurate project...

[dast24 138]

yeah and after that you can do a version of the mirage 2000.

i think the luftwaffe would stay with mirage aircrafts when they are happy with the mirage 3 :-)

[PraetorH 166]

If anything I'd go for the Mirage 4000

But I am not a fan of all too modern aviation, so 80ies are usually not my cup of tea.

Also one should remember the Eurofighter started with French participation, maybe they would have gone for it, or made it a German/French project (even though it is unlikely considering France's claims in the Future-European-Fighter Aircraft-Programme).

[Toryu 156]

Why not go for a similar approach as the Swiss went when making-up their Mirage IIIS with the Hughes fire-contol system and it's weapon-layout?

 

Any chance for a Canard-update somewhere in the late seventies?

[PraetorH 166]

Would be sensible but out of my possibilities, as I cannot model in 3D.

[+Gepard 11,323]

With the fake pilot methode you can add parts. For the first Su-33 we had, it was done in this way. Try to use this Su-33 canards on the mirage IIIG. Perhaps it will fit.

[Toryu 156]

The Kfir C2/ C7 has the corrrect canards.

For those that don't have WOI, taking them off the C7 would be an option.

[dast24 138]

@PraetorHonoris:

maybe it would be better to carry only one Mauser BK or to build a new Mauser BK

i´m planning a updated Mig29G because the Eurofighter Programm was cancelled/delayed(what-if)

i, also want to get the Mig29 to a more Nato standard with new Radar,Weapons and so on.

maybe we can do a bit of brainstorming about a 20-27mm mauser canon that fit´s into both planes

[Toryu 156]

Praetor, where have you gone?

Haven't heard of you for quite while