Werner Voss or a Cecil Lewis?

[Javito1986 14]

Honestly, who got the better deal? Discussion doesn't have to be limited to these two btw.

 

I mean this seriously, give it some thought.

 

Werner Voss had a short life span, but went out in such a blaze of glory he practically achieved immortality. People still talk about him as the master aviator of WW1, and frankly I'm of the opinion that 56 Squadron was lucky to shoot him down, as he shot down two SE5s and damaged seven others, several seriously, he could have killed them all single handed it seems. He died fighting like a freaking beast against overwhelming odds.

 

Then there's Cecil Lewis. Known for his magnificent book no doubt, but didn't get that kind of glory. But he had such a great life. Co-founded BBC, wrote an amazing novel that will live on, married, had children and grandchildren and lived to a ripe old age and died peacefully. The war didn't define him at all, but it does define Werner Voss, Richtofen, and guys like them.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Javito1986

[Hasse Wind 46]

I'd choose life over a dramatic death every time. What did Voss really achieve, besides going down in a blaze of glory? He would have been much more useful to his country as a living ace than a dead hero. Voss was probably the best example of a pilot who was far too aggressive for his own good. It was only a matter of time before his recklessness got him killed. What good is fame when you're dead?

[Olham 164]

I'm with Hasse Wind there. Although I have been flying OFF very ruthlessly, I would surely NOT do so in RL.

Pilots like Werner Voss or Frank Luke were extremely zealous - they wanted to be high ranking on the kill

tally, and they wanted to get there faster than others. This eagerness killed them before their time.

 

We would come to the difficult question, if there is a life or other form of being, after our death.

Cause, if there is not, you wouldn't even be able to sample the pleasures of being remembered as one

of the most daring aces. You would just be dead.

 

I would prefer to be more likeJulius Buckler there - doing your duties and collecting your kills as they come,

slowly but surely. And survive.

 

Cecil Lewis would not have had a second of doubt about this question, I bet: he would have done it as he

has, every time again.

[Hellshade 110]

I fly ruthlessly and aggressively because I know it won't actually cost me my life.

 

Voss was 20 something when he died. What more might he have been known for had he lived another 40 years? What things might he have accomplished?

But those are my values. Voss lived and died by his. My choice, if forced upon him, might have left him a bitter old man who felt empty for not doing what his heart told him to do when he had the chance. He lived and died by his values and so did Cecil. That's actually more important than the "what if's" in my personal opinion. What good is life without passion and how can there be passion if you don't follow your heart?

 

Helllshade

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

IMHO, to live, (and die), as Voss did in those final minutes is to commit oneself to the moment without thought of life or death or winning or losing. And whether that comes about through fear, or bravery, or sacrifice, or survival, whatever the motivation; it is to become truly alive for that single instant in time, with no thought for the next. It is the ultimate surrendering of oneself to the universe. His demise always reminds me of a Wendell Phillips quote:

 

“How prudently we proud men compete for nameless graves, while now and then some starveling of Fate forgets himself into immortality”

I must confess I would likely have chosen the path of Cecil Lewis and far more prudent men, had I found myself in such circumstances. But then, to be fair, a man cannot honestly know how he will respond until the universe calls him to the test.

 

.

[Dej 17]

I'm with Lou.

 

It's only a choice or a judgement one can make with hindsight making the question rather specious. Neither Cecil Lewis nor Werner Voss nor any of the others who lived or died in The Great War had much in the way of contemplative choice about their fate on the day. They did what it fell to them to do - pure chance - and responded to their circumstances as their natures dictated... who's to say that Lewis' and Voss' situations might not have been reversed, Lewis was young too, equally gung-ho, but didn't happen to encounter the same situation as Voss - doesn't mean his personality was necessarily any different.

 

Life or Death... WHOSE choice is it, actually? Some escape 'certain death' other heroes die from an infected insect bite.

[JFM 18]

Lewis.

[carrick58 23]

I agree, Its Lewis.

[Javito1986 14]

Nobody here's a daredevil looking to go out in a blaze of glory eh?

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

To take this to a slightly deeper level...I'm glad that the likes of Voss were killed (and I don't mean that in a cruel way)...but if some of these amazing German Aces had survived the War...the Luftwaffe might have had someone VERY good at the Helm for the Battle of Britain!!!....instead of the Fat, Druggy Queen it got instead.

 

Lewis for me too

Edited March 27, 2011 by UK_Widowmaker

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

I fly ruthlessly and aggressively because I know it won't actually cost me my life.

 

Voss was 20 something when he died. What more might he have been known for had he lived another 40 years? What things might he have accomplished?

But those are my values. Voss lived and died by his. My choice, if forced upon him, might have left him a bitter old man who felt empty for not doing what his heart told him to do when he had the chance. He lived and died by his values and so did Cecil. That's actually more important than the "what if's" in my personal opinion. What good is life without passion and how can there be passion if you don't follow your heart?

 

Helllshade

 

Hellshade

 

Personally I would prefer to fly like Cecil Lewis. That does not mean I don't admire what Werner Voss achieved during his short life, and while I would have liked to see him survive to the end of the war, as I am sure he would have far surpassed MVR's victory total.

 

This is also tempered with relief for Werner Voss that he was killed in combat, because as a Jew I think he would have died in a concentration camp, which I am sure we all agree would have been a sad end for a great pilot.

 

BTW I also think he was a far better pilot than MVR.

 

Thanks

Rugbyfan1972

[Olham 164]

Nobody here's a daredevil looking to go out in a blaze of glory eh?

Most of my OFF flying was like that, Javito!

(I always wanted to use this Smiley once!

 

It's wearing off though, when you repeated it often enough, and never get very far with it.

An advantage, Werner Voss or Frank Luke did not have.

Now I'm approaching the style of flyers like Creaghorn or RAF_Louvert more and more.

Maybe still a long way - it's hard to change your character.

[Crossbones 1]

Voss! Mr Lewis was not a God fearing man.

 

Crossbones

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

"Mr Lewis was not a God fearing man."

Not so sure about that, Crossbones. You don't tend to find a lot of atheists in a combat zone. Agnostics, yes, and even non-denominationalists. But not too many who don't actually fear and respect a higher power.

 

.

[Hasse Wind 46]

I've never understood the fascination some people have with dramatic deaths. Did Voss fight bravely against overwhelming odds? Yes, undoubtedly. Did his sacrifice benefit the cause of Germany in any way? No, it didn't. He would have been much more useful to his Staffel, his comrades and his fatherland as a living ace, who could have shared his knowledge with novice pilots and helped them to improve their chances of survival as a fighting team against numerically and often technologically superior Entente forces. The British pilots who shot him down demonstrated just how to fight effectively as a team, and not go looking for trouble alone against numerically superior enemies. It was a miracle Voss lived as long as he did with his totally reckless and aggressive style of flying. Yes, it was dramatic and the stuff of legends, but also reckless and downright stupid. Voss was no leader and tactician compared to MvR. A brilliant lone wolf type of pilot, but definitely not what the German air force needed in the final months of the war.

[Lewie 7]

Wasn't Cecil Lewis famous for hanging upside down from a Martinsyde G100 when he tried to change his Lewis's ammo drum?

[Dej 17]

Nope, that was Louis Strange.

[JFM 18]

I agree with UK_Widowmaker. Voss wasn't much of a leader but what would a driven leader like MvR have done with the Luftwaffe? Fun to speculate. Wouldn't have overcome the English Channel (it was is the savior of Britain--the English fought valiantly during the Battle of Britain, and I mean no disrespect, but if England were landlocked with France nobody was stopping the Wermacht in May 1940) or US production but had he been in charge it is possible the allies would have had a much tougher time of things. Or, maybe not? Who knows. Again, fun to speculate.

 

+1 to what Hasse wrote.

 

Regarding Voss, many think he's a better pilot than MvR. I'm not saying he is or isn't (although history shows MvR was not the "poor" pilot many mistakenly believe he was); I don't know. But I can't find anything that speaks of Voss's stick-and-rudder ability beyond the descriptions of his final flight, made by pilots with far less victory totals. I can find beacoup personal testaments to MvR's skills but nothing on Voss; again, not saying MvR was "better" pilot than Voss but indeed he was better than "poor." Although I will say that if Voss was a better stick and rudder pilot than MvR, well, okay; he would have done better at the Adlershof demonstrations but a lot of good it did him over the lines, where it counted. Voss's death is another example that maneuverability is defensive. One needn't fly like Sean Tucker to shoot down an airplane but it can help evade the guy on your six, but Voss had too many opponents to overcome (although Hawker had only one opponent to overcome and his aerobatics got him nowhere as well). It's no fluke that the #1 and #2 top scoring pilots of WW1 weren't aerobatic pilots.

[Olham 164]

What makes me wonder much more, is the question, how Werner Voss could get into this situation,

and if Manfred von Richthofen could have got into this situation as well?

[Lewie 7]

What makes me wonder much more, is the question, how Werner Voss could get into this situation,

and if Manfred von Richthofen could have got into this situation as well?

 

Well ask yourself this what situation exactly did Richthofen get himself into over Villiers Bretoneaux and Corbie?

[JFM 18]

MvR's situation 21 April 1918 is simple to assess: too low near the lines. That's it. There was no "violation" of personal combat ethics or PTSD-influenced decision making or any other such overthinking by many to "explain" the loss. He flew within range of small arms fire, as he had before, only that time he got shot. Just like Mannock, except not in flames.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

What situation exactly did Richthofen get himself into over Villiers Bretoneaux and Corbie?

 

Ooo, ooo, I know, I know...not a good one.

 

Remember to phrase your answer in the form of a question.

 

Sorry Alex. What is, "Not a good one?"

 

That's right Lou, but Jim got in just ahead of you, so the point goes to him.

 

.

[JFM 18]

What makes me wonder much more, is the question, how Werner Voss could get into this situation,

and if Manfred von Richthofen could have got into this situation as well?

 

According to Lothar von Richthofen, here's an anecdote describing a similar situation with MvR. Bear in mind, I'm not suggesting MvR would have survived if in Voss's shoes 23 September 1917, just showing that even the pinnacle of German fighter pilots was involved in his share of scraps:

 

(After becoming separated from MvR in a battle when 5 English scouts attacked them. LvR fought one, had jammed guns, then disengaged.) "Where are the other four Englishmen and where is my brother? Then I saw a ghastly scene! The four Englishmen and my brother were turning circles around each other in a wild battle. I was fearful for Manfred. I had a gun jam and could no longer shoot. But he must have help! After all, my brother had continuously distracted the four Englishmen, who would have long since cut me off. Now it was my turn to help. I got right in the middle of the combatants. The four Englishmen, who had previously had one opponent, suddenly left us and flew home, even though they were double our number. They could not have known that my guns were jammed as well. As my brother said afterwards, he had given up on both of our lives."

 

MvR had rescue, but prior to that had fought a 4 vs 1 draw. Who knows how long he could've continued without help.

[Javito1986 14]

MvR's situation 21 April 1918 is simple to assess: too low near the lines. That's it. There was no "violation" of personal combat ethics or PTSD-influenced decision making or any other such overthinking by many to "explain" the loss. He flew within range of small arms fire, as he had before, only that time he got shot. Just like Mannock, except not in flames.

 

 

 

 

Yep, that's how I see it. He'd done the same thing plenty of times before. It's not even blind luck or chance really, getting hit when you're low over the line is just either something that happens or it doesn't. It could just as easily have happened to in 1916 and we never would have heard of him.

 

Feel bad for Mannock though. Did they ever work out if he actually shot himself like he said he would?

[Lewie 7]

MvR's situation 21 April 1918 is simple to assess: too low near the lines. That's it. There was no "violation" of personal combat ethics or PTSD-influenced decision making or any other such overthinking by many to "explain" the loss. He flew within range of small arms fire, as he had before, only that time he got shot. Just like Mannock, except not in flames.

 

Who knows how many notable pilots of WWI managed to beat odds in Murphy's court by doing this, probably more than wanted to admit at the time. In Mason's book 'The Escadrille Lafayette' he writes about the 1917 spring move from their airfield in Chacy to Ham, and how part of the squadron was voluntarily pressed into low level trench scouting. Seems like a likely really, really bad situation flying alone at 150 to 50 feet above the the German forward trenches, yet they all survived this, only to have their squad mates die stupidly by playing around with obsolescent French monoplanes.