"What is in the Picture?" - A P4 Screenshot Quiz

[Olham 164]

Wonderful, Lewie, and correct.

 

1. The Fokker D.VII F was the craft, that was said to be able "to hang on it's prop" in a climb.

One or two extra seconds of steep climb ability could make the difference, when they chased an opponent - or when they got chased.

 

2. There were indeed two main kinds of screenprinted Lozenge, the Four-Colour and the Five-Colour fabrics.

 

3. Jasta 10 had yellow noses, and some had also yellow tails. I admit, that I do not know, who's D.VII this is.

 

And the additional question: the skinner was most likely OvS (also known as James Romano - he wrote that he would re-vamp the D.VIIs).

 

Your turn, Lewie!

[Lewie 7]

This one will be a fun one,

 

This is a product of the Royal Air Factory and a very common fighter, but it's unusual in a few regards.

 

1. What variant is this?

 

2. What engine was it equipped with?

 

3 . There was a change in the wing structure of this aircraft, what was the nature of this change.

[33LIMA 972]

1. It's an SE5 (as opposed to an SE5a) - possibly 2nd production batch, but without the greenhouse windshield, field-modified.

 

2. engine Hispano-Suiza 8A, 150HP (possibly Wolseley-built, rather than Aries)

 

3 Wings - tips blunter, earlier version had more 'raked' tips

Edited April 24, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Lewie 7]

1. It's an SE5 (as opposed to an SE5a) - possibly 2nd production batch, but without the greenhouse windshield, field-modified.

 

2. engine Hispano-Suiza 8A, 150HP (possibly Wolseley-built, rather than Aries)

 

3 Wings - tips blunter, earlier version had more 'raked' tips

 

Yes, yes and yes, Lima gets this one. Good show, It's now your turn.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Lewie

[shredward 12]

Wonderful, Lewie, and correct.

3. Jasta 10 had yellow noses, and some had also yellow tails. I admit, that I do not know, who's D.VII this is.

And the additional question: the skinner was most likely OvS (also known as James Romano - he wrote that he would re-vamp the D.VIIs).

Your turn, Lewie!

 

That skin is actually the unit marking of Jasta 33, but you would be hard pressed to know that unless you saw it from a different angle. I believe the skin is a collaborative of both Makai and Stachel - they certainly worked together on the lozenge schemes, but I believe that particular skin was done by Makai.

Cheers,

shredward

[Olham 164]

Ooops! So Jasta 33 also had yellow markings? I didn't know that (as they are not in OFF yet).

And thank you for the info - I thought, OvS did all the Fokkers.

[33LIMA 972]

 

1. What RFC Squadron is recorded as operating this actual aircraft??

 

2. What is the origin of this aircraft type's commonly-used name?

 

3. When you soar in the air with a Sopwith Scout, and you're scrapping with a Hun, and your gun cuts out...Well, what do you do?

 

Bonus question (and clue to Q.3) - to what popular tune, well-enough known today, was the RFC song from which the above lines were taken, sung?

Edited April 24, 2011 by 33LIMA

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

1. That would be a Sopwith Pup of 66 Squadron, RFC, and it was piloted by 2Lt Patrick O'Brien.

 

2. The Sopwith Scout was given it's "Pup" nickname by it's pilots who considered it the "pup" of the two-seat Sopwith Strutter.

 

3. "Well, you stuff down your nose till your plugs fall out, 'Cos you haven't got a hope in the morning!" (sung to the tune of "John Peel").

 

 

And here is that entire wonderful little ditty, entitled "We Haven't Got A Hope in the Morning":

 

When you soar into the air on a Sopwith Scout,

And you're scrapping with a Hun and your gun cuts out,

Well, you stuff down your nose till your plugs fall out,

'Cos you haven't got a hope in the morning.

 

Chorus

For a batman woke me from my bed;

I'd had a thick night and a very sore head,

And I said to myself, to myself I said,

"Oh, we haven't got a hope in the morning !"

 

So I went to the sheds and examined my gun,

Then, my engine I tried to run;

And the revs that it gave were a thousand and one,

'Cos it hadn't got a hope in the morning.

 

Chorus -

 

We were escorting Twenty-two,

Hadn't a notion what to do,

So we shot down a Hun and an F.E. too,

'Cos they hadn't got a hope in the morning.

 

Chorus -

 

We went to Cambrai, all in vain,

The F.E.'s said, "we must explain;

Our cameras broke, we must do it again;

Oh, we haven't got a hope in the morning!"

 

Chorus -

 

 

Great stuff, that.

 

.

[Olham 164]

Just searched YouTube for the RFC version of "John Peel", but didn't find it.

Here is the original song, as presented by "Finnegan's Wake".

There are better sound quality versions perhaps, but I found, that this scruffy, distorted recording

gets me closer to the imagination of RFC boys singing it.

 

Try and sing the above text to it; works fine.

 

Edited April 25, 2011 by Olham

[Olham 164]

I bet you're right with all answers, Lou, and now it should be your turn, Sir!

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Olham, I bet I'm correct too. So, at your prompting Sir, here is the next P4 screenshot to work on.

 

 

 

 

Considered by many to be the most successful fighter aeroplane of the Great War, answer the following questions about this fine kite:

 

1. What firm designed and built this aeroplane, and how did it get it's name?

 

2. What were the three critical factors involved that gave this kite its incredible agility when flown by a gifted pilot, as well as its deadly spin characteristics when flown improperly?

 

3. What was the unit number of the most famous single example of this aeroplane, who was the ace that flew her for almost one full year in combat, and how many victories were scored in this one kite alone, (the Great War record BTW).

 

Good Luck!

 

Lou

 

.

[Olham 164]

Great second question! Now, where are you Camel spin doctors?

[33LIMA 972]

.

 

1. That would be a Sopwith Pup of 66 Squadron, RFC, and it was piloted by 2Lt Patrick O'Brien.

 

2. The Sopwith Scout was given it's "Pup" nickname by it's pilots who considered it the "pup" of the two-seat Sopwith Strutter.

 

3. "Well, you stuff down your nose till your plugs fall out, 'Cos you haven't got a hope in the morning!" (sung to the tune of "John Peel").

 

 

And here is that entire wonderful little ditty, entitled "We Haven't Got A Hope in the Morning":

 

When you soar into the air on a Sopwith Scout,

And you're scrapping with a Hun and your gun cuts out,

Well, you stuff down your nose till your plugs fall out,

'Cos you haven't got a hope in the morning.

 

Chorus

For a batman woke me from my bed;

I'd had a thick night and a very sore head,

And I said to myself, to myself I said,

"Oh, we haven't got a hope in the morning !"

 

So I went to the sheds and examined my gun,

Then, my engine I tried to run;

And the revs that it gave were a thousand and one,

'Cos it hadn't got a hope in the morning.

 

Chorus -

 

We were escorting Twenty-two,

Hadn't a notion what to do,

So we shot down a Hun and an F.E. too,

'Cos they hadn't got a hope in the morning.

 

Chorus -

 

We went to Cambrai, all in vain,

The F.E.'s said, "we must explain;

Our cameras broke, we must do it again;

Oh, we haven't got a hope in the morning!"

 

Chorus -

 

 

Great stuff, that.

 

.

 

Yes. gotta love the old RFC mess songs, wish there was an album available. "Aces High" (the movie) is about the nearest to that we'll get I daresay.

 

At 1.20:30 in "Aces High" you can hear the pilots singing part of "You haven't got a hope in the morning", in the background mostly.

[Olham 164]

Hmmm - well, if no one bites.... Not sure if all three factors are among my No. 2 answer, but worth a try.

 

1. TheSopwith F.1 "Camel" was designed and produced by Thomas Sopwith's "Sopwith Aviation Company";

the name "Camel" came from the two bumps of the metal hood covering the guns

 

2.1 The weight of the engine, the tank and the pilot were in the first 7 feet of the aircraft, near the center of gravity.

2.2 The very strong gyroscopic effect of the engine made the fighter turn incredibly fast in right rounds.

2.3 The Clerget engine was very sensitive to mixture control.

(The Camel lacked a variable incidence tailplane. So the pilot had to apply constant forward pressure on the stick

at lower altitude. The Sopwith F1 "Camel" was the first British fighter to be standard-equipped with two machine guns

firing through the propellor.)

 

3. Major William Barker shot down 46 aircraft and balloons in his "Camel". An anekdote: when Barker's Camel

was dismantled in 1918, Barker kept the clock as a memento. But he was asked to return it the following day.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Olham

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Olham, you are spot on with your number one answer.

 

You have two factors correctly ID in number two: that of gyroscopic precession; and the fact that the vast majority of the Camel's overall weight, (i.e. engine, petrol tank, guns and ammo, and pilot), were all located at or very near the aeroplane's center of gravity. However, while the Clerget's sensitive control mixture did contribute to many of the crashes at take-off, (beacuse at about 200 feet or so off the ground it had to be fiddled with, and the inexperienced pilot would look down into the cockpit to find the control, and thus was not noticing that gyroscopic precession was helping to push him into a nose-high left roll, which left unchecked for very long would cause the beast to stall and spin into the dirt), it was not precisely one of the major factors that allowed for the kite's fantastic agility in the hands of a veteran pilot, though it was interconnected in a lesser way with the third factor...hint, hint.

 

You have everything correct in your number three answer, however you have not given the unit number of Barker's Camel.

 

Very good Sir, keep trying.

 

Lou

 

.

[Olham 164]

Barker's Camel was flown in No. 28 Sqdn RFC under the number "1", there was also a smaller letter "C"; it had serial no. B6313.

 

As for the third factor, I think I need a more experienced Camel pilot's help here. You don't mean the blip switch, perchance?

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Very good, B6313 was the one. But no Olham, not the blip switch, (though again, it is sort of related). I am actually looking for another dynamic force, one that can change with the RPM's.

 

.

[Olham 164]

Well, the "engine torque" should be the same as the already mentioned "gyroscopic effect" (which made turning to the right double as fast as for other fighters)?

 

Hey, there must be some more Camel enthusiasts around here? Come on, you guys - help!

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Actually, it isn't just engine torque Olham, but 102" prop torque as well. And torque is not at all like the gyroscopic precession you've already mentioned. Torque is indeed the other factor I was looking for that, in the right hands, makes the Camel just that much more agile and lethal a fighter, and in the wrong hands makes it's own pilot dead just that much quicker.

 

Your turn Sir.

 

.

[Lewie 7]

I'll try to explain it a little bit.

 

Gyro precession is what's known as the force that resists a vector input with a comparable force at 90 degrees to the input direction, depending on of course rotation, My understanding is fairly layman-ish but it's no different to the way a gyroscope toy works. Spin up a gyroscope and hold it upright with the arc of the flywheel level with the ground Now try to rotate the gyro forwards, it will, depending on rotation of course, try to twist to the left or right.

 

Propeller torque on the other had is the force created by the engine driving the prop through the air and it varies inversely to the actual airspeed the aircraft is flying at. This is a function of the pitch, diameter and rpm of the prop. A right hand turning prop will always make the plane want to roll to the left, and this force will vary with how close to the "pitch speed" is of said prop and the aircraft is attached to is traveling. Draggy airframes will make this worse. Add to this factor the efficiency of the propeller has in turning it's rotation into forward motion.

 

There is a third force that effects mostly taildraggers and this is called "P force". Which is the imbalance of thrust from one half of the prop arc, to the other, of a propeller traveling through an airmass that isn't moving at 90 degrees or perpendicular to the prop arc. This can cause the aircraft to have a decidedly hard time with the tail wanting to swing to either the left or right, again depending upon the prop rotation, until the tail rises from increased airspeed, and brings the prop-arc to being nearly perpendicular to the air flowing into it.

 

Nieuport V strutters were known to have a lot of "P force" before they got their tails off the ground, as did the Camel and Fokker DRI. This added to the treacherousness to novice pilots of these aircraft, in addition to the torque and gyro procession.

 

I've probably confused the discussion some..

Edited April 26, 2011 by Lewie

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

No Lewie, I think you did quite well in that very brief summary of a rather complex interplay of different forces as regards an aeroplane in flight. And yes, you may also have confused the discussion somewhat, but I don't know how you could avoid all confusion when getting into this discussion. It can get rather thorny trying to explain just how this all works together.

 

Let me give a go at outlining what was happening when one of our WWI counterparts attempted to simply lift off in his trusty Camel:

 

The engine is ticking over nicely, all warmed up and ready to go, so our brave flyer gives the Clerget full power and the Camel starts to move down field. Because it is quite tail heavy, the pilot is pushing forward on the stick to try and get the skid off the ground as soon as possible, and as he does so gyroscopic precession begins to take affect and twists the plane to the left, so the pilot applies right rudder to compensate. By now the kite leaves the field becasue of its large wing surface, even though it's air speed is still rather slow. The pilot at this point starts to ease back on the stick slightly which causes the bird to not only nose up but to twist instead towards the right, (again due to gyroscopic precession), so left rudder is applied. Also, the torque of that monsterous prop, (and a bit from the spinning engine), is now wanting to roll the Camel to the left, so the pilot must contend with that by giving a bit of opposite aileron input to correct for the roll. Unfortunately, right about now, (around 200' off the ground), the Clerget starts to get bucky because it needs the mixture readjusted slightly, and if our pilot is not familiar with the controls he has to duck his head into the cockpit long enough to locate the lever and fiddle with it, and in that amount of time the Camel has again started to roll to the left due to the pilot's preoccupation with the engine settings. At this point, due to the climb angle, and the roll, and the application of left rudder, there is a bit of yawing to the left as well, which in turn increases lift on the right wing tip while decreasing it on the left wing tip and accelerating the rate of roll, as well as causing gyroscopic precession to the pull the nose higher, and...if the pilot does not catch all of this mad cycle very quickly, he stalls and drops into a spin and his career as an RFC flyer is over. This whole process is made even more tricky by the small control surfaces the Camel was blessed with, (which provided less stability and feedback to the pilot), as well as it's lack of top wing dihedral, (which added further to it's twitchiness), and the aforementioned concentration of its mass at or near its center of gravity, (which allowed it to change attitudes very quickly with little effort). Suffice it to say, it could be a beast to fly because of all these things, but also a beauty. It really depended on the pilot.

 

.

 

Oh Crikey! Just realized I forgot to mention P-Factor as pointed out by Lewie. This would have been playing it's part in the above scenario as well until the tail skid got off the ground and sufficient forward speed was built up, requiring the pilot to give rudder input to compensate for that too. See, this can all get confusing even if you do have an idea of what the hell's going on.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited April 26, 2011 by RAF_Louvert

[Olham 164]

I knew it was complicated.

 

The problem for me was, that some people seem to have got the two words

"gyroscopic effect" and "engine torque" confused in the past.

 

I had once found a great video of the effects created by a rotary engine,

demonstrated by a physician, in YouTube, but can't find it again.

[Olham 164]

Here is one for Hasse Wind:

 

1. Which is the exact aircraft name and type, and by what can the exact type be easily be identified?

 

2. Which year was it introduced?

 

3. This craft was used by KaGOHL - what does KaGOHL stand for in German, and what does it mean in translation?

 

 

Edited April 26, 2011 by Olham

[33LIMA 972]

1. The aircraft is an Aviatik CI I believe, and the distinguishing feature compared to other German C-types is that the observer sits in front not to the rear of the pilot.

 

2. 1915, according to Gray and Thetford

 

3. KaGHOL = Kampfgeschwader der Obersten Heeres Leitung, roughly translated to Battle (bomber) Unit of the Army High Command

Edited April 26, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Olham 164]

Almost correct, LIMA - but what do you say, when I tell you, that in most Aviatik C-types, the observer was sitting behind the pilot?

So, I wanted the exact type numbering/name.