What did you do in the War Dad?

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Great stories there...I'm gonna bump this...just in the hope we get some more

[Olham 164]

BBeard, I guess, that you can only share the very scary things with someone, who has also seen them - even if

it was another war? The others wouldn't be able to fully understand them.

 

 

MikeDixon, you may be asthonished - Google Street View gives us quite a good picture of van Lennepweg 16 -

you see, even the garden gates are still the same ones as in the photo, were they are closed.

IMHO it gets me back in time, and very close.

 

 

 

.

 

Edited July 27, 2011 by Olham

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

that's quite astonishing!...really brings it back to life!

[+elephant 36]

I was impressed when Olham, identified the location of the town at that WWI german newsreel, from the Cathedral, but now he transpassed himself with those garden gates!

 

[Olham 164]

Naw, elephant, I like the new Sherlock Holmes series on TV, but I'm far from his qualities -

MikeDixon had mentioned the exact address in his post above; "van Lennepweg 16" -

everyone can type that into GoogleMaps, and then activate "StreetView" and walk around there.

 

If you have never done so:

 

- in GoogleMaps, search for "Oosterbeek, van Lennepweg 16" and zoom into the map

- now grab that yellow little mannekin from the scale menue at the left, and drag it over "van Lennepweg"

- when the street appears / turns blue, you drop the yellow guy there.

Note, which direction your arrow shows, so you know where you are currently looking

At the left, in the scale menue, you have arrows up, down, left and right

Turn round with them

If you want to walk, click with your mouse on the street in front of you - when an oval appears, you can

click there, and you will now move to that position

 

This way you can explore the whole "van Lennepweg" and so much more, if you want.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Olham

[MikeDixonUK 5]

Thanks a lot, Olham - pretty amazing to think that almost 70 years later the gate is still the same (or at least an exact copy!)

 

I did a quick google image search and found another photo of 16 Van Lennepweg, which brought up this:

 

 

I can't claim to understand Dutch (I presume it's Dutch anyway ) but it seems to say it's a photo of Sgt Walker and a group from 15 Platoon, at No. 16 Van Lennepweg (where the Moolhuizen family lived?) taken on the 20th of September - which is the same day that the photo with my Grandfather was taken.

 

From what I know I believe my Grandad was in 15 Platoon, C Company, 1st Battalion, The Border Regiment, 1st Airlanding Brigade, 1st Airborne Division. So he may even be one of the Soldiers in this picture - or if not it's at least a photo of his 'Sarge'

 

I'll have to look through other pictures from the Oosterbeek Perimiter as he might be in some of those too!

 

Also, out of interest - here is the full lineup of the Paratroopers from the first photo:

 

From left to right: probably CSM Gerry Stringer and Corporal Jim Swan (who would win the MM the next day), Corporal Freddie Webster (smoking a cigar. Webster would be awarded the US Silver Star for the role he played at Arnhem), Private J. Boow (My Grandfather - he was promoted to Corporal by the end of the War), Private Eric Blackwell (the Bren gunner), Unknown.

 

And here is the citation of Corporal Swan's Military Medal:

 

"At Arnhem on the 21st September 1944 the enemy carried out a strong frontal attack on C Company. While this very depleted company was engaging the enemy to its front, an enemy platoon with Machine Gun support attacked from the left. Corporal Swan was in charge of the company support group of six men. Without awaiting orders he immediately engaged the enemy, who were extremely determined and pressed home this attack. Corporal Swan however, so handled his small force that he halted the enemy. Not content, however, he attacked with bayonet and grenade and killed the greater proportion of the enemy platoon: the remainder fled. Corporal Swan's gallant action undoubtedly saved a very critical situation. His leadership and devotion to duty were of a high order."

Here's a great website about the British Airborne Units in WW2, which is where I've found most of my info - as well as the online version of the photo of my Grandfather (it's also printed in a book about the Border Regiment.)

 

http://www.pegasusarchive.org/

 

Also to clarify, my Mother says it was Norway that he was sent to at the end of the War to receive the German surrender - and also that it was the only place that he was sent to in WW2 that he wanted to return to after the war - but the fact that no one was trying to kill him might have had something to do with it!

Edited July 27, 2011 by MikeDixonUK

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Can honestly say...this thread has been the most interesting OT thread I've ever read on CA

[Olham 164]

Well, I don't speak Dutch, MikeDixon, but it is a lot like the original language we spoke

and still speak in Ostfriesland (East Friesland - Holland is actually also called West-Friesland).

What I read here is this:

 

"On 20 September, Sergeant Walker filmed a group from the 15th Platoon

in action around the house of the family Moolhuizen at Van Lennepweg 16.

The house burnt down in the strike (attack ?), but the (garden) fence is still

there in front of the new house."

Edited July 27, 2011 by Olham

[Olham 164]

Just found this:

 

http://www.saak.nl/b...nepweg%20en.htm

 

And on this photo collection site you can see more photos of the time.

 

https://picasaweb.go...hezeOctober2010

 

There is even Sgt. Walker! The line under the pic reads:

Sgt. Jock Walker, Army Film & Photographic Unit (AFPU)

 

 

 

15 and 16 Platoon, dug in at van Lennepweg (background - the guys in front are from other groups)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Olham

[MikeDixonUK 5]

Thanks a lot, Olham - I guess that explains why the house in the picture looks different to the one in google maps - while the fence and gate look the same.

 

According to the War Diary C Company came under heavy Mortar and Artillery attack during the defence, so it might mean the house was damaged during an Artillery Strike.

 

Thanks for the other links too, I'll have to have a look through them.

 

 

[Olham 164]

There is even footage filmed in Oosterbeek on YouTube, Mike!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rup0Hu72wqw

 

 

Operation Market Garden - In the Oosterbeek Pocket

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijrpgbTaSXQ&feature=related

[Flyby PC 23]

The airborne stuff is amazing! I've never seen such closely related 'then and now' pictures. I think it's too easy to forget this is still living memory, and I cannot imagine how important such images are for the troops who were there. Then there are people like Harry Patch, the last fighting Tommie of WW1, who didn't even talk about his war until he was 100 years old. The other thing which impresses me is how easy it is for the importance of a picture to be lost. I find myself looking at lots of war time pictures, but you get a kind of snow blindness, and stop really looking. It's great to learn so much more about these pictures. In years to come, I think we may regret keeping all our images digital. It's just not the same as a pile of black and white photos.

 

There are lots of pictures my dad took which I have no idea where they are nor why he took the picture. It's funny about UKW's father not liking the Japs and Italians, and Mikes Grandpa wanting only to visit Norway. My father spent time in Egypt and Iraq, and without being rude about it, he wasn't very impressed with the locals. The 'Arabs' for want of a better word were always trying to con or pickpocket everybody and couldn't really be trusted. The only people he had any time for were the Kurds, whom he liked a lot, but I have no more background into his reasoning. He didn't like the Nips either.

 

And just to harken back to the Skua again, it seems pretty obvious (but might not be correct), that the line up of Swordfish, Skua and Seafire, is not unlike the American compostion of carrier based aircraft typified by Midway, you had Avenger torpedo bombers, Dauntless dive bombers, and Wildcat fighter cover. Whether that's true, I don't know, but there are some obvious parallels.

 

And finally, your google browser has a translation capacity. Right click on the foreign language page, and menu pops up, look down the list and "Translate with Bing". And if it's just a short expression you want to translate, try Yahoo's Babelfish page. Type in the text you want translated and tell it which language you want.

[kaa 0]

Fascinating stuff coming from every post...and the videos and pictures from the British paratroops in Arnhem are great . Thanks for everybody !

Edited July 27, 2011 by kaa

[SirMike1983 3]

My great uncle flew a P51 during the War as bomber escort and dual role. He downed a 109 after a dogfight over the Romanian oil fields while escorting the bombers. He also was part of the strafing fighter attacks later in the war in europe. He told very little of his experiences and only spoke of some things toward the end of his life.

 

My great grandfather was in the first war originally as a doughboy and, when they found out he spoke fluent German and some French in addition to English, they put him in the MPs in some kind of intelligence gathering role. At some point he managed to acquire an Iron Cross First Class from a German (dead or alive, don't know). It's in my parents' house in a display case along with a WW1 victory medal.

Edited July 28, 2011 by SirMike1983

[Flyby PC 23]

I remember asking a question on the old CFS3 sim about RAF gunners putting on 1 or 1.5 rings of deflection on, and what the 'ring' part referred to. Someone called Grandguy replied. I forget his exact words, but in essence he said if his memory served correctly, it was a way to adjust the gunsight for a deflection shot. I was intrigued, and quizzed him about his memory, and where and how he was using this gunsight, and it turns out the man was an actual tail gunner in a Lancaster with his all Canadian crew in 1944/45. He'd flown a few operational sorties, and passed on a few of his tales which were absolutely brilliant.

 

Sadly, I heard Grandguy passed away a short time ago, but it was a priviledge to have spoken to him. He had a high regard and gratitude to the P-51 escorts. He recounted how on one mission he noticed activity in the air behind him, and flashing planes approaching. One of the neighbouring Lancasters to his took damage, and the penny dropped he was under attack. The planes were Me262s, and as they approached he tried to open fire but his guns jammed. The mid turret behind opened up, but by the time he managed to re-cock his own guns, he only had time to fire a very short burst. That was his contribution to the war effort. He was nevertheless very glad to see three Mustangs barreling past after the Me262's.

 

He told another tale about a take off one time, when he was stuck in the rear turret watching the take off, but suddenly aware everything, as in control towers etc, was much closer than it usually was. He put it out of his mind and forgot about it until after the mission. It turned out the Pilot had been told he could keep his aircraft straight on the runway using his rudder and ailerons instead of the brakes, and his first attempt to try out the theory had come perilously close to disaster when his take off had gone significantly off course. I've done that loads of times in a sim, but it must have been 'exciting' to say the least to do it in a real Lancaster.

 

His final tale was my favourite, because he was trained as an air gunner in Canada, and got live practice in a Fairey Battle. There were three trainees at a time taken up for a go on the machine gun. The Battle however had a big hole in the floor, where you could poke your head out and get a great view of the scenery. Not wishing to fall out while having a look, he held on for dear life to these metal bars beside the gap he was looking through. Suddenly the flight became more turbulent, and the angry pilot started swearing and gesticulating. That is how Grandguy came to learn where the control rods for the aircraft were situated, and what happened if gripped them very tightly.

 

Rest in peace Grandguy, but it was a massive pleasure to make your acquaintance. I was so very glad I'd asked my question about the deflection rings. You just never know who is out there.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Flyby PC

[33LIMA 972]

There is even footage filmed in Oosterbeek on YouTube, Mike!

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Rup0Hu72wqw

 

 

Operation Market Garden - In the Oosterbeek Pocket

 

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

 

 

A bit OT now, but I prefer the 're-enactment' in the film 'Theirs is the Glory' to that by the re-enactors in the 'War and Peace' show clip above - the movie clip has real PIAT fire, real German tanks, and pretty realistic tactics:

 

 

...although the German 'tanks' in Oosterbeek at the end were really Stug IIIs; there is some good move footage of them and the Waffen SS troops in the TV series 'The World at War' and some excellent still pics from the same camera team in the 'After the Battle' magazine issue on Arnhem.

[Olham 164]

Fighting tanks in films is often shown wrong, or gives at least a wrong impression.

German tanks would not have moved into a dangerous zone without Panzergrenadiere

around them. The tank crew has no good overview, and would be easy to kill by soldiers

with bazookas, if they were not shielded by soldiers.

You see that quite well in "Saving Private Ryan", how the tank commander would not

only lead his own crew, but also the Panzergrenadiere around the tank.

[MikeDixonUK 5]

I'll have to try to get the DvD of "Theirs is the Glory" as the actors in the film were actually the soldiers who fought there, filmed in the location where the battle took place!

 

Although it can't have been much good in regards to flashbacks and PTSD and the like! "Hey, you know that huge battle you fought in last year, where loads of your pals got killed - well how about you go back and do it again on camera?"

 

This clip is rather interesting it must be said - on account that the bloke with the PIAT is called Dixon - just a shame my Grandad didn't have the same surname as I do - but you never know!

 

 

I also cook...

Edited July 28, 2011 by MikeDixonUK

[Olham 164]

Well, Mike, I see it different - this is rather one of those "posed films" which don't pay respect

to the guys who fought there.

If it would have been so easy-peasy - "Stop your cooking and go out and shoot me a tank:" -

then the whole war would have been over in a year.

Those paratroopers in the Oosterbeek pocket stood against German paras and tanks.

If there were big tanks, it would have been SS. You couldn't do childsplay with the SS or the

Paras - they were well trained, very tough soldiers with very good equipment.

 

That Oosterbeek pocket scenario must have been part of what was later told in "One Bridge

Too Many". Those paratroopers held a bridge head with very few men, and for quite some time,

before they received any help. Many of them surely felt dispair some of the time; they were afraid

to be let alone; they went through many hours like that; and in the end - cause they resisted the

enemy AND their own fears and dispair - they won the battle.

But that was never as easy as the above scene. Killing a tank (which was always shielded by many

soldiers with MPs, handgranades etc.), was surely a task, that could make you sh*t in your pants.

Nothing you would quickly finish between two cups of tea.

 

Sorry, Mike - this isn't meant at all offensive - but such films make a joke of

those real tough achievements those men had to make in those rough days.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Olham

[MikeDixonUK 5]

I dunno, maybe it's just a British thing to try to make everything look very casual and stiff upper lip.

 

Chocks away bally good prang wizzard smash, etc.

 

But I get what you're saying - and I dobut there's anyone who understands it more than the people that were acting in the film - as they were there!

[Flyby PC 23]

Fighting tanks in films is often shown wrong, or gives at least a wrong impression.

German tanks would not have moved into a dangerous zone without Panzergrenadiere

around them. The tank crew has no good overview, and would be easy to kill by soldiers

with bazookas, if they were not shielded by soldiers.

You see that quite well in "Saving Private Ryan", how the tank commander would not

only lead his own crew, but also the Panzergrenadiere around the tank.

 

 

I believe that's why the British tanks were so slow. They weren't designed to be slow, but just not designed to be fast. They were only envisaged as support for entrenched infantry, and as such, they didn't anticipate needing speeds much above that of infantry units on foot, just like your MkIV and Whippet tanks in WW1. The Churchill Tank had a top speed of 16mph early in the war, which reduced to 12mph once extra armour was added. It's armour was thicker than a Tigers, it just wasn't sloped, and it's gun of course was much lighter. The British tanks are often slated for being poor, but at El Alamein, one Churchill survived 80 hits from German shells. I suppose they weren't bad, just obsolete too quickly perhaps, and too often under powered and under-gunned. Hobarts funnies were also Churchills.

 

 

All this refence to the PIAT has encouraged me to read up a bit more about it. I've seen PIATs in museums and like British Tanks, I had always been given to believe the PIAT was a crude and rubbish piece of kit which bounced off tanks and wasn't up to the job of destroying them. I think this is perhaps a bit harsh. It's range was not very far, and the projectile could be unreliable, but used correctly, (and avoiding frontal armour) it was capable of penetrating 75mm armour and destroying any tank in the theatre, including Tigers. The shaped charge was relatively new technology, but on impact, the cone shape fired a plug of molten metal at high pressure to penetrate the armour, with the larger pressure wave following behind and entering the vehicle. - Much the same technology as a Panzerfaust. Despite what I've heard otherwise, the PIAT was also every bit as effective as the American Bazooka, but it took 90kg of pressure to draw back and cock the weapon. I can only wonder if that's a misprint. That's 14 stone!!! You'd have to put your full body weight into cocking it! It also took 2 fingers just to pull the trigger. Effective or not, I can see why it wouldn't be popular.

[MikeDixonUK 5]

I seem to remember watching one of these weapon documentaries which showed one of the ways to 'load' the spring on a PIAT was to stand it front up - stand on the end of it and pull the whole thing upwards,- so that sounds about right.

 

Another thing with the PIAT, with it being a spring loaded grenade launcher style weapon it means you didn't have to worry about backblast and other such dangerous side-effects which meant it was easier to use indoors compared to other launchers, which made it good for urban combat - plus presumably it would have made a lot less of a scene when fired - which would make it harder for the enemy to spot them?

 

Presuming you didn't miss and need to reload in a hurry, of course!

Edited July 28, 2011 by MikeDixonUK

[Olham 164]

Maybe you're right, Mike, and it's just the British humorous way to deal with such situations.

To me, the invasion scene at the beginning of "Saving Private Ryan", and the very well made

European part of "Band of Brothers", gave me a glimpse of how it could have been.

All war films before didn't show much of how it is to be terribly wounded, or dying.

 

It's just that I wonder if kids, who have never seen real war, and watch the old films,

might come to the conclusion, war was a great kind of holiday camp with adventures?

[theultimat 5]

It's just that I wonder if kids, who have never seen real war, and watch the old films,

might come to the conclusion, war was a great kind of holiday camp with adventures?

 

I recon I still qualify as a kid, and I can tell you from talking to the people that go to my school, that many people around my age do, for some reason unknown to me, think war is great fun. The worrying part of it is, a lot of them said this after watching the beach assault scenes at the beginning of Saving Private Ryan in a history lesson a few years back. It really does make you wonder, but I think some people just say it to try and seem like they "have no fear", so to speak, and wouldn't actually join the army if given the choice. I think the main problem is, they see real life war as just another video game, but, as I'm sure all here are well aware of, it most definitely isn't.

[MikeDixonUK 5]

You can watch the whole film here by the way, although the sound quality isn't that good:

 

Theirs is the Glory

 

I haven't watched it all, but there are quite a few sombre scenes in it - not to the same level of the likes of Saving Private Ryan or Band of Brothers, but then no film in the 1940s would go that far - but suffice to say it doesn't look fun.