OFFbase: The Barmy Automated Squadron Experience for Over Flanders Fields

[Herr Prop-Wasche]

Any thought of factoring in secondary personality characteristics into player/NPC encounters? Right now, all characters in OFFBase only have one personality type. What if they could also have secondary personalities? For example, if my personality class is Romanitic, maybe I also like to gamble (Gambler class) and spread rumours (Rumour Monger class)? I don't have a lot of time to flesh this out more right now, but I think this might add even more sophistication to my interactions with NPC's--especially if they also have secondary characteristics which might influence how many points I win or lose in an interaction with them. For simplicity sake, I would limit the number of secondary personality classes to just 1 or 2, but if you already have an interactions Table set up, then it should not be too difficult (with the computer) to calculate the number of points per encounter.

 

What do you think?

[+Lothar of the Hill People]

Any thought of factoring in secondary personality characteristics into player/NPC encounters? Right now, all characters in OFFBase only have one personality type. What if they could also have secondary personalities? For example, if my personality class is Romanitic, maybe I also like to gamble (Gambler class) and spread rumours (Rumour Monger class)? I don't have a lot of time to flesh this out more right now, but I think this might add even more sophistication to my interactions with NPC's--especially if they also have secondary characteristics which might influence how many points I win or lose in an interaction with them. For simplicity sake, I would limit the number of secondary personality classes to just 1 or 2, but if you already have an interactions Table set up, then it should not be too difficult (with the computer) to calculate the number of points per encounter.

 

What do you think?

I was thinking along the same lines, HPW. Need to get the encounter system settled first, I'm still not happy with how it works in the latest version.

[Herr Prop-Wasche]

In what ways are you not satisfied with the encounter system? Just curious.

[+Lothar of the Hill People]

In what ways are you not satisfied with the encounter system? Just curious.

I'd like to make decisions more strategic and outcomes more intuitive. It's really about finding a good way to exploit the trade-off between long-term prestige earning from building relationships and short-term prestige earned at the expense of others.

 

I'll have something to play with soon.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Lothar of the Hill People

[+Lothar of the Hill People]

One thing I have noticed about the Offbase transfer process - when creating a new pilot in the squadron that you wish to transfer into, it has to be ths same name as the transferring pilot (not sure about the rank, but having the same name is important). The first time I tried it I didn't think this would be important, as I assumed the new pilot details would be overwritten (I called him 2nd Lt. Stolen Identity), but ended up with both this new pilot and the transferred pilot on the roster (transferred pilot flagged as Player). This created problems for the OFF Manager, as i guess it enlarged the roster, which periodically threw up error messages saying it was unable to update pilot roster, and no pilots from that point on were killed or injured or went on leave. It might be worth including in the Transfer instructions that the newly created pilot must have the same name as the transferred pilot :)

I've been unable to reproduce this error, Bletchley. When I transfer into a squadron of a pilot with a different name, I'm able to fly either pilot without problems. This is one of the features of OFFbase, multiple player pilots in a squadron, so it automatically makes room on the roster for each other. If this happens again, can you send me your pilot dossier files for the affected pilots? In fact, I'd expect problems with two pilots having the same name.

 

Anyone else have any luck, good or bad, transferring into a squad?

[+Lothar of the Hill People]

Just uploaded version 0.5.8, hopefully it'll be approved soon. I think I've figured it out. Well, here's the change-log:

 

Added 'Captured' dialog, thanks Bletchley. Completely reworked the social encounter system based on an iterated prisoner's dilemma game: trade off between short-run prestige from besting your opponent in encounters and and long-run prestige from cooperating to build friendships. Non-player pilots also have prestige, and develop their own strategies based on their personalities, social skills, and memories. Decisions, their consequences, and the evolution of relationships should be much more dynamic, intuitive, and fun. It's about learning which pilots are trying to befriend you and which are out to build their prestige by exploiting yours, and how to enhance your career by building some up and tearing down others.

This is really cool. Essentially prestige grows daily through the strength and impact of your friendships as before, a positive-sum game. But now encounters are zero-sum games where you and your opponent strategize how and whether to try to steal prestige from each other or

 

This is going to take a whole new strategy guide Bletchley, though some bits are still useful. Playing "risky" no longer gives you guaranteed prestige just a better chance of out-doing your competition, defecting to take their prestige. What used to be playing "safe" still makes you more cooperative in building friendship but now also more open to exploitation from others instead of having a fixed prestige cost. Mechanically, these choice modifiers run in the opposite direction, as do modifiers from tables 3 and 4, though I flipped some back like bully/coward relations to preserve these dynamics. Cooperating means rolling low and defecting means rolling high. If both parties cooperate, friendship grows on both sides. If both defect, they dislike each other more. If one cooperates and one defects, the high-roller gets some of the lower's prestige.

 

So Natural Friends in particular and friends in general will on average roll lower against you, making it safer for you to cooperate but giving you an incentive to cheat and earn some quick prestige without hurting a deep friendship much--people really do take advantage of friends, some types more than others given the situation. But if you've keep bullying them, their rising anger begins to offset their natural and learned friendliness and they just may stand up to you and put you in your place. You'll be able to push some classes around more than others in different social situations, while others may take quite a bit of placating to befriend. A Gambler's more likely to get carried away in a game of chance, a Bully in rough horseplay, letting fun and their pride take friendship for granted.

 

Non-player prestige doesn't yet have any gameplay implications, but at some point it'd be cool if bullying that flieger or sergeant relentlessly to fuel your own promotion meant they transfer out at the first opportunity. And npcs don't yet have encounters and relationships with each other. Ultimately, I'd like to make morale evolve from the aggregate of how friendly or hostile the actual pilot relationships are together.

 

To make it easier, I finally report the other's type in the encounter window. Creaghorn, hopefully there's enough info now you don't have to take notes! Though I'd like to build in pictures of your squadmates, it's so much easier to remember relationships when you can put a face to them not just a bunch of long German names! I'll see if I can get something like that in the next update, even if it's having to open another window just to show the pic (can't get inline pictures to work).

 

So go get it! And let me know how relationships feel now, it still may take some fine-tuning. But it should be a completely different game

[Bletchley]

I will try it again, Lothar, to see if I can reproduce it - maybe the pilot dossier was corrupted due to some unrelated glitch, or some peculiarity of my setup.

 

I have started to use version 5.7, and I like the differentiation in outcomes. No problems so far, but I have not played it long enough yet to see what effect it has over a longer period.

 

Bletchley

 

Just read your post, Lothar (crossed with mine): it is looking really interesting, moving away from random outcomes towards long-term relationships and game play. Look forward to using 0.58 when it becomes available :)

Edited November 8, 2011 by Bletchley

[+Lothar of the Hill People]

I will try it again, Lothar, to see if I can reproduce it - maybe the pilot dossier was corrupted due to some unrelated glitch, or some peculiarity of my setup.

 

I have started to use version 5.7, and I like the differentiation in outcomes. No problems so far, but I have not played it long enough yet to see what effect it has over a longer period.

 

Hey, Bletchley, for some reason it won't let me PM you! Unrelated corruption's always a possibility given how flakey OFF can be and how much we fiddle with our own files. I'm not helping of course by adding a whole 'nother layer on top!

 

And go get 0.5.8!

[Creaghorn]

great. always you post a new version, i have to go to work .

 

sounds really good. it's getting better and better.

yes, that's a big reason why i also have an excel file. because the pilots have pics and i can see their behaviour to me, their character etc. at once.

 

one suggestion i have though. as long as i know the informations about the others, revealed by the adjutant are updating once a day. maybe it's just me but when i return from a 120 minute sortie far over enemy lines to make pics about suspicious movements etc., and after that i enter the adjutants office, i rather don't expect him to be bugged because i'm entering the office again. actually he should ask how it was, glad that i'm back, what did i see and how was the sortie. instead of beeing grumpy. so entering the office between sorties, but the same day should be like entering the office the first time.

also maybe some of the informations revealed by the adjutant should rather revealed in the mess.

maybe inbetween sorties when going into the mess it should be with the text of rather beeing empty, and after the afternoon-sortie (when the OFF manager actually jumps to the next morning) there maybe might appear the text about having dinner altogether and/or the drinking in the mess and maybe should rather there be revealed who is what character and what happened to whom (missing etc.)

anyway. i can't wait to try the new version. very well done sir

[Herr Prop-Wasche]

Just uploaded version 0.5.8, hopefully it'll be approved soon. I think I've figured it out. Well, here's the change-log:

 

This is really cool. Essentially prestige grows daily through the strength and impact of your friendships as before, a positive-sum game. But now encounters are zero-sum games where you and your opponent strategize how and whether to try to steal prestige from each other or .....

 

...so Natural Friends in particular and friends in general will on average roll lower against you, making it safer for you to cooperate but giving you an incentive to cheat and earn some quick prestige without hurting a deep friendship much--people really do take advantage of friends, some types more than others given the situation. But if you've keep bullying them, their rising anger begins to offset their natural and learned friendliness and they just may stand up to you and put you in your place. You'll be able to push some classes around more than others in different social situations, while others may take quite a bit of placating to befriend. A Gambler's more likely to get carried away in a game of chance, a Bully in rough horseplay, letting fun and their pride take friendship for granted.

Wow. This is an awesome new addition to your program, Lothar! Where did you learn about the Prisoner's Dilemma and the difference between zero-sum and non zero-sum games? One additional suggestion I have--is there any way to randomly vary the type of "game" the player and NPC are playing in an encounter (without their knowledge) thus requiring the player and NPC to choose either cooperation or competition in each encounter? In other words, if the encounter turns out to be a zero-sum game, and the player chooses to cooperate and the NPC chooses competition, the NPC "wins" the most points, while the player "loses' points. If both choose compete, then both potentially lose a lot of points. OTOH, if a non zero-sum game, if both player and NPC cooperate, then they both win points, but if they both choose to compete, they both gain little. There are other variations in outcomes that I can't remember--I have to get out my psychology textbook--but my point is that not all encounters with other people are attempts to dominate or win "prestige" (zero-sum game); some actually are about cooperation and building friendships (non zero-sum game).

[+Lothar of the Hill People]

one suggestion i have though. as long as i know the informations about the others, revealed by the adjutant are updating once a day. maybe it's just me but when i return from a 120 minute sortie far over enemy lines to make pics about suspicious movements etc., and after that i enter the adjutants office, i rather don't expect him to be bugged because i'm entering the office again. actually he should ask how it was, glad that i'm back, what did i see and how was the sortie. instead of beeing grumpy. so entering the office between sorties, but the same day should be like entering the office the first time.

also maybe some of the informations revealed by the adjutant should rather revealed in the mess.

maybe inbetween sorties when going into the mess it should be with the text of rather beeing empty, and after the afternoon-sortie (when the OFF manager actually jumps to the next morning) there maybe might appear the text about having dinner altogether and/or the drinking in the mess and maybe should rather there be revealed who is what character and what happened to whom (missing etc.)

Yeah I'd like to refine the scheduler a bit to bring out the feel of daily life, thanks for the suggestions.

[+Lothar of the Hill People]

Wow. This is an awesome new addition to your program, Lothar! Where did you learn about the Prisoner's Dilemma and the difference between zero-sum and non zero-sum games?

I'm over-educated, trying to finish a Ph.D. in economics.

 

One additional suggestion I have--is there any way to randomly vary the type of "game" the player and NPC are playing in an encounter (without their knowledge) thus requiring the player and NPC to choose either cooperation or competition in each encounter?

There already is a fairly large random element to it, so pilots may end up being more or less cooperative than they think. I can tell you from personal experience that self-awareness isn't all that great in social interactions, even trying to be nice you can still come across as a real bully for example.

 

The type of encounter already influences the kind of strategy pilots want to play. For example, a priest will play more cooperative if he gets dragged along as someone's drinking buddy, relying on the friendliness of the other pilot not to tell everyone. Thus he's more open to losing prestige from a Heavy Drinker more likely to defect, pushing the Priest to getting really drunk or otherwise causing a scene: 'who are you to judge me? hic!" On the other hand, a Priest is more likely to defect and tear down the Heavy Drinker's prestige in an intervention, feeding his own moral superiority while the Drinker's feeling especially vulnerable.

 

In other words, if the encounter turns out to be a zero-sum game, and the player chooses to cooperate and the NPC chooses competition, the NPC "wins" the most points, while the player "loses' points. If both choose compete, then both potentially lose a lot of points.

Yep, except they don't loose prestige immediately if they both defect, their friendships are hurt. And they don't gain prestige immediately if they both cooperate, just enhance their friendships. Zero-sum transfers of prestige only reflect differences in the actual strategies played.

 

OTOH, if a non zero-sum game, if both player and NPC cooperate, then they both win points, but if they both choose to compete, they both gain little. There are other variations in outcomes that I can't remember--I have to get out my psychology textbook--but my point is that not all encounters with other people are attempts to dominate or win "prestige" (zero-sum game); some actually are about cooperation and building friendships (non zero-sum game).

It's zero-sum in the immediate sense, players competing with the potential to take prestige from each other at that moment, but it's positive-sum over time as cooperating and building friendships increases the amount of prestige pilots earn every day from the outlook of others.

 

In fact I just might get rid of the morale bonus mechanic and have morale just be a way to describe the overall amount of prestige pilots earn on average from friendships.

[UK_Widowmaker]

Wow!...this looks pretty damn cool!...I musta missed this in the main forum!...gonna download tomorrow, and give it a whirl!...thanks m8

[+Lothar of the Hill People]

Wow!...this looks pretty damn cool!...I musta missed this in the main forum!...gonna download tomorrow, and give it a whirl!...thanks m8

Glad you found it, Widowmaker, let me know what you think. I'll post an advert to the main forum when I get version 0.6.0 out, which will feature NPC on NPC encounters. For now, I've just posted 0.5.9 with a number of updates for you guys to test:

 

Reworked scheduler: you now get one encounter per day with your roommate by visiting your quarters and daily encounters are no longer automatic but occur by visiting the mess hall. Rank now factors into pilot strategies so higher-ranked will be more likely to try to exploit lower-ranked pilots. Some slight balancing of player choices in encounters. Fixed Creaghorn's zombie wingman bug I think, let me know what happens when your roommate is killed. NPC pilots now earn daily prestige from other pilots' outlooks towards them.

 

As soon as the admins approve it, go get it!

[Bletchley]

The only thing I use dice for now, Lothar, is for determining player-pilot leave, so including this in some future version would complete it for me :)

 

The OFF Manager lets NPC pilots go off on leave, but never the player-pilot. I have noticed that when I damage my aircraft beyond repair and I have to wait a day or two for a new one (or a major repair of the old one) my pilot status changes to 'On Leave' in OFFbase, so I guess it might be possible to implement other types of leave in Offbase (?).

 

The manual way that I do it: at the start of every new day I throw a dice - a "6" and my player-pilot is 'On Leave', but the duration is determined by a second throw of the dice - another "6" and he is on leave for 10 days (I just forward time for 10 days in the OFF Manager, a bit tedious), "1-5" and it is just 24 hours (forward time again). I add an extra wrinkle to it by making the 10 day period just 48 hours if the sector is 'active' (not sure how easy it would be to include this last part, as I am not sure how the OFF Manager handles the distinction between 'active' and 'quiet' sectors other than in the text briefings). This system gives the player-pilot approx. 1 day off a week (he might not be on leave, but might just be asigned the duty of Orderly Officer, which all RFC pilots had to do in rotation), and more substantial leave (a 48 hour pass or a 10 day home leave) approx. once a month.

 

Thanks for the latest version. I will download as soon as I can :)

 

Bletchley

[Herr Prop-Wasche]

I'm over-educated, trying to finish a Ph.D. in economics.

 

Me too--I'm trying to finish one in Psychology--without much success, I'm afraid.

 

In fact I just might get rid of the morale bonus mechanic and have morale just be a way to describe the overall amount of prestige pilots earn on average from friendships.

Your project is really taking OFF, so to speak. Your explanation of encounters and their effect on friendships and morale makes a lot of sense, and as an economics Ph.D. candidate, you probably know a whole lot more about zero-sum games than me, so I will shut my gob. I can't wait to finish my testing of my latest version of my DM so I can dive more into OFFBase. Can't wait to see how the NPC/NPC encounters work out!

Edited November 9, 2011 by Herr Prop-Wasche

[OlPaint01]

@Lothar

 

I have version OFFbase 0.5.9 running with the latest OFF:HitR v1.47.

 

I have a couple of questions:

 

1)I have all four nations represented in my OFF:HitR Pilot Dossiers with at least one squadron per nation with at least one pilot in each squadron. A total of 5 fighter pilots of various ranks. OFFbase sees all the pilots. I am having difficulty trying to 'Play Pilot' the British Squadron pilot. I can get to the screen where the British pilot is listed and he can be highlighted with no issues but when I attempt to Play Pilot, OFFbase locks up hard. I must halt the OFFbase in TaskManager to recover. All my pilots can be made active inside OFF:HitR and all pilots play and advance normally without OFFbase running. All the other squadrons pilots will play normally in OFFbase with all screens working when I select 'Fly Mission'. My question is there a limit to the total number of Nations, Squadrons, Pilots that OFFbase can manage?

 

2)What is the process for transferring out of a squadron into another one from inside OFFbase? I have yet to see that described in any kind of detail.

 

OlPaint01

Edited November 10, 2011 by OlPaint01

[+Lothar of the Hill People]

Hey OlPaint, see my responses below.

 

1)I have all four nations represented in my OFF:HitR Pilot Dossiers with at least one squadron per nation with at least one pilot in each squadron. A total of 5 fighter pilots of various ranks. OFFbase sees all the pilots. I am having difficulty trying to 'Play Pilot' the British Squadron pilot. I can get to the screen where the British pilot is listed and he can be highlighted with no issues but when I attempt to Play Pilot, OFFbase locks up hard. I must halt the OFFbase in TaskManager to recover. All my pilots can be made active inside OFF:HitR and all pilots play and advance normally without OFFbase running. All the other squadrons pilots will play normally in OFFbase with all screens working when I select 'Fly Mission'. My question is there a limit to the total number of Nations, Squadrons, Pilots that OFFbase can manage?

Nope, no limits like that. Must be something in your pilot's dossier file that's freaking OFFbase out. Could you PM me the PilotXXDossier.txt file for him, where XX is the number of the pilot. Also, there should be a 'Rebol 3 Alpha' console window running with OFFbase, but minimized. If you could send me any text that appears in this window when OFFbase hangs that would help tremendously. You shouldn't have to use the task manager to kill it if it crashes, just close this console window.

 

2)What is the process for transferring out of a squadron into another one from inside OFFbase? I have yet to see that described in any kind of detail.

Basically all you do is go into OFF and create a new pilot in the squadron you want to transfer to, at a date sometime after your current squadron date. Then OFFbase will detect the available squadron. Select it in the list and submit the transfer request, and OFFbase will do all the work, putting your pilot on leave for the time between the squadrons. Then you'll have two player pilots in the new squadron, with separate wingmen and flights. If you don't want to play the new pilot in your squad, just delete him in OFF manager and he'll turn into an NPC pilot in your roster.

 

People have had mixed success, but if you want to give it a try and let me know how it works for you I'd appreciate it.

[OlPaint01]

@Lothar

 

I still have a question about squadron transfers. When I go into OFF:HitR to create a new pilot dossier in the destination squadron, should I use the 'same name' and 'same rank' for the new pilot? Or should I make a 'place filler' name? Also what does 'NPC pilot' stand for?

 

I am really enjoying the immersion that OFFbase brings to OFF:HitR. Great Work!

 

OlPaint

[Creaghorn]

@Lothar

 

I still have a question about squadron transfers. When I go into OFF:HitR to create a new pilot dossier in the destination squadron, should I use the 'same name' and 'same rank' for the new pilot? Or should I make a 'place filler' name? Also what does 'NPC pilot' stand for?

 

I am really enjoying the immersion that OFFbase brings to OFF:HitR. Great Work!

 

OlPaint

 

if your pilots name is X and you want to transfer him or get transfered, then you create a new pilot with name Y at the squadron you want to go to, but the date must be in future of the current date of your main pilot (personally i created a new pilot and went to the pilots dossier file and changed the date to be two days in future of the main pilot).

 

then you go to OFFBase again and transfer him to the new squadron. pilot X will then automatically be the in the new squad and pilot Y is an option to fly with him in the same squad, but other character. if you then go into OFF manager and retire pilot Y again, then he will become automatically a NPC (non-player-character, AI mate so to say) and you will fly with X as before in the new squad and Y is just another mate like the others. easier to do than to explain

[+Lothar of the Hill People]

if your pilots name is X and you want to transfer him or get transfered, then you create a new pilot with name Y at the squadron you want to go to, but the date must be in future of the current date of your main pilot (personally i created a new pilot and went to the pilots dossier file and changed the date to be two days in future of the main pilot).

 

then you go to OFFBase again and transfer him to the new squadron. pilot X will then automatically be the in the new squad and pilot Y is an option to fly with him in the same squad, but other character. if you then go into OFF manager and retire pilot Y again, then he will become automatically a NPC (non-player-character, AI mate so to say) and you will fly with X as before in the new squad and Y is just another mate like the others. easier to do than to explain

So if you want to join a squadron with your pilot's brother or something, create a new pilot in the squad with the same last name. Be sure to run OFFbase as the new pilot as well to set their class, the current version will crash if you don't.

[Bletchley]

Hello Lothar, yes, I have now successfully managed a transfer using a new pilot name as above - and it worked just fine this time! There must have been a glitch in my pilot dossier the first time. I am sorry if this is causing any confusion amongst others.

 

Being captured now also triggers the correct response in OFFbase, although I did notice that the new dialogue box has a 'funeral' header :)

 

Bletchley

[+Lothar of the Hill People]

Being captured now also triggers the correct response in OFFbase, although I did notice that the new dialogue box has a 'funeral' header :)

One last fix, just made it into the new version Bletchley.

 

So I've just posted 0.6.0, the most significant update so far. Here's the change-log:

 

Full dynamic squadron simulation: Non-player pilots have daily encounters with each other, developing their own prestige and goodwill to earn their own promotions, while periodically going on and returning from leave. All this goes on even as you advance or skip time due to weather, injury, whatever. Chance of witnessing non-player encounters when leaving the mess hall.

 

Artificial Intelligence: Pilots now have both long-term memory (stock) and short-term memory (flow) to help form social strategies based on a modified tit-for-tat. Your pilot's AI preselects its preferred strategy as a guide to beginning players. Non-player pilot AI gives a small benefit of the doubt to encourage cooperative equilibria.

 

Additional improvements: Event-driven encounter system: argue with another pilot over a kill after a mission, or engage in Tough Talk to brag after a Hat Trick. Progress on player leave system. Morale is no longer random but an emergent property of the collective good-will of your squadmates.

 

Balancing: Promotion cost increases with rank. Pilots now start with an increased 25 prestige as social life can be rough at first.

 

Bug Fixes: Fixed crash bug with undefined player pilot classes, thanks Creaghorn. Fixed crash bug with British and German naval squadrons and French squadrons, thanks OlPaint01. Correctly removes pilot from squadron when transferring out and other player pilots remain in squadron. Deactivated NPC-only classes: Hometown Comrade, Natural Enemy, and Natural Friend as these don't make sense applied to all relationships.

As soon as the admins approve, go get it! If you guys could test it out and make sure there are no show-stopping bugs, I'll post an advert to the main forum.

[Kaische]

That sounds very promising, Lothar, thank you very much for your work! Looking forward to try it.

[Bletchley]

Works just fine, Lothar, thank you :)

 

Bletchley