Stall behaviour...and seeing or hearing it coming...

[33LIMA 972]

One of the many things I like about First Eagles is that you get a visible AND an audible buffet, so you can tell when you're flying on the edge and it's not that much of a shock if you 'depart' (which you can, on the 'Hard' FM).

 

In OFF, the first I know - usually it happens in a turn, but also sometimes in a dead-stick landing - is often my plane just departs without such warning, sometimes violently, sometimes recoverably and sometimes not (I don't use instrument views).

 

I don't have an FF joystick and was considering getting one to help with this, but I see from some posts on the recent joystick thread, some say it makes little difference.

 

So I looked for the OFF stall sound and it's the stock CFS3 one, and fairly mild (not a warning horn or 'Bitching Betty', just a sort of wind rush sound).

 

But I never recall having heard it, in game (maybe because I have the engine volume turned up, which I find best).

 

So I tried copying across the First Eagles stallsound (which is a bit louder and a more urgent, buffeting sort of sound, in game it's very effective), after amplifying it. I thought that if I can't get the visible buffet effect, at least I can get an 'audible' effect that's actually...well, audible. But not a buffet is to be heard. I don't think that it's swamped by the loud engine. I think it just was not playing.

 

I tried some more stall-testing of some different planes, and found it a bit strange. I basically did the old Lesson 10b thing - lesson 13 was as far as I got with my flying lessons - 'Z' key on, so I could see the numbers, external view. I flew straight and level, closed the throttle (so less engine sound too!), and kept the wings level, pulling back on the stick to hold altitude and watching and listening for the stall to develop. But it didn't seem to happen. Instead as the speed decayed to about 45-50mph, the plane just gradually started to sink, nose up and tail down. This happened with the Fokker EV, Pfalz, and Albatros DV.

 

What I was expecting was as in real life (albeit in a Cessna, but I'm not sure it should differ) was there to be some sort of warning i could hear - greater wind sound (which is what the CFS3/OFF stall sound is like) or a stronger wind sound (like the First Eagles one) and then the visible nose dropping as the plane actually lost flying speed and stalled. Perhaps an incipient spin if the wings weren't quite level or whatever. CFS3 and OFF have just such a sound so I should be able to hear it, especially as I'm using a louder version, right?

 

Wrong! Nothing heard, out.

 

Now I know some WW1 planes are reported to fly tail-heavy. But I was still expecting the nose to drop, in a stall. The nearest I got was that if I wasn't careful, one wing would drop and the plane would THEN nose down out of its tail-sink, in an incipient but (in the 3 planes I mentioned) mild and easily-corrected spin. but with care I could hold the planes in this 'tail-sink with no stall', some more easily than others.

 

So, thus far, I'm left with the rather strange impression that I'm not hearing the stall sound, not because it won't play, or does but is drowned out, but because the planes aren't actually stalling - from level flight anyway.

 

I'm going to do some more testing, perhaps with sim warnings/messages turned on - I'm guessing there is a stall warning text message amongst these and I want to find out if the stall sound does indeed play at the same time as the text warning - if there is one - displays. If it does plays, I'm then going to make a stall 'wind buffet' sound that's definitely audible above the engine sound, so I can know when I'm approaching a stall, whether in level flight, taking off or landing, or turning. that's the aim - to get a reliable and audible warning that you're on the edge of a stall.

 

If the stall sound isn't playing, and if that's because the plane's (the ones I tested, anyway) aren't hitting whatever trigger it is that sets it off, that's gonna be a tricky one, maybe needing FM modifications.

 

Is anyone else hearing the stall sound, in any planes? It's definitely there, in the 'Sound' folder.

Edited November 30, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Olham 164]

There is a yellow stall warning in the upper right corner, which turns red at stall.

If your's doesn't appear, you should go to the "Overrides" in "GraphicsConfig" (in "Workshops"),

and see, if "Simulation warnings" is disabled.

Untick the box, and you should get it.

A sound for stalls is rather funny - you would normally feel it in the stick, and in your belly.

[33LIMA 972]

A sound for stalls is rather funny - you would normally feel it in the stick, and in your belly.

 

Yup, that's why an FF joystick was my first plan - before I read some say it doesn't make much difference (tho it might be enough, for stalls). All I want is SOME kind of stall warning, without having to switch on those text sim warnings; like you I much prefer to 'fly' without this sort of thing. FE does this well, with aubible and visible buffeting (whether or not they are exaggerated, i find they are effective and convincing feedback, in the absence of FF). Since CFS3/OFF already has a stall sound, I figured that would do nicely, thanks - or would do nicely, if I can get to hear it! I'll turn on the sim warnings and experiment a bit; thanks for confirming there's one for stalls.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

I sometimes hear a stall warning sound, but only in a turn or when climbing at low speed--never from level flight, like you described.

[Creaghorn 10]

Yup, that's why an FF joystick was my first plan - before I read some say it doesn't make much difference (tho it might be enough, for stalls). All I want is SOME kind of stall warning, without having to switch on those text sim warnings; like you I much prefer to 'fly' without this sort of thing. FE does this well, with aubible and visible buffeting (whether or not they are exaggerated, i find they are effective and convincing feedback, in the absence of FF). Since CFS3/OFF already has a stall sound, I figured that would do nicely, thanks - or would do nicely, if I can get to hear it! I'll turn on the sim warnings and experiment a bit; thanks for confirming there's one for stalls.

 

 

FF joysticks are absolutely great and very useful.

you always have some sort on force while flying, especially when manouvering, when landing and rolling, it makes shooting more difficult because the slight rattle puts you off target. when close to a stall you can feel it rattle heavier, depending how close to the stall you are. i think uncleal called it rattle of death. if you can get one, get one.

[Olham 164]

LIMA, although I have indeed switched off all aids, I left the stall warning on - simply

because I cannot get the "belly feeling" as in RL.

Since I know my Albatros in and out, I hardly ever see a yellow line.

Perhaps that is okay for you?

[33LIMA 972]

Well I've done a little testing in an EV and a Pfalz with the sim warnings turned on.

 

The CFS3/OFF stall sound (Stall.wav) did NOT play, in any stalls from level flight, even when the sim warning text reported 'near stall' in yellow, nor when it went red and tells you you're stalling now. There is no change in sound, as you near or enter these conditions, and the game has clearly detected and reported that they are present. Drat!!! That's in level flight. I'll do some more to see if I can get it playing for stalls in turns - harder to make out as I have the engine at high revs. Can't understand why the stall sound might play for stalls in conditions other than level flight, only.

 

What I want is a stall sound - something CONVEYING buffeting or vibration, that sort of thing - that you get regardless of aircraft attitude and can hear over the sound of the motor, even at high revs.

 

With the engine noise turned down a bit and the effects/cockpit sounds turned up a bit, I can hear a 'rushing wind' sound from the cockpit which increases/decreases in pitch/volume with speed, which is good. However, while it goes quieter at slower speeds, it doesn't get any quieter/different as you approach the stall - so this effect is no use as a stall warning, even if you set it so that you could hear it above engine noise

 

The wing dropping happens exactly as the red stall warning is displayed. So in OFF terms, THAT'S your stall. The fact this only happens (at least, with all the planes iIve tried) some time after your plane has been sinking tail first, and you have lost a lot of altitude in that condition, is to my mind strange. I would expect you to have been able to maintain your altitude pretty well, by increasing the angle of attack and sacrificing speed for lift, till the stall happened and your nose droppped (with or without wing drop). Still, whether the stall behaviour I've seen is realistic or not, it would definitely be helpful, and I think probably realistic, to have an audible stall warning sound of some sort, to convey the presence of pre-stall buffeting. I will have to experiment a bit to see what might be possible.

Edited November 30, 2011 by 33LIMA

[33LIMA 972]

LIMA, although I have indeed switched off all aids, I left the stall warning on - simply

because I cannot get the "belly feeling" as in RL.

Since I know my Albatros in and out, I hardly ever see a yellow line.

Perhaps that is okay for you?

 

Yes having left 'simulation warnings' on for the testing, I agree with you, it's not too obtrusive and it is quite useful. I would want to see a yellow line 'near stall' warning in a tight turn fight as that tells me I'm at the limit. But I worry that it would warn me of other things too, which i don't want - if not that my cup of tea in the Mess was getting cold, then that my right elevator had been hit, repeated five times etc, all the sort of thing I remember from the first time I installed CFS3 (CFS1 and CFS2 as well, IIRC) and turned off as quickly as I could! Even if the warnings just display stall warnings, I do think it would be better still if there was a 'buffet sound' to warn of a stall rather than a text message. This is what the stall sound in FE does (and does well, in conjunction with a visible 'jarring' of your plane). I was pleased to find a stall sound in OFF, thinking it would do much the same if I fine-tuned the sound settings to make it audible; but disappointed to find it not working, or not working very well, or maybe it's just me unable to get it to work! Will keep trying...

Edited November 30, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Olham 164]

I don't think the devs have left the acoustic stall warning signals "on" in OFF - simply because WW1 aircraft didn't have them.

Perhaps one of our modders here can find out, where to re-activate them.

But you'd probably get a snarling WW2 type of noise.

[33LIMA 972]

OK I think I've got the start of something usable.

 

It turns out that the CFS3/OFF sound 'Stall.wav' DOES play when the stall warning text displays. For some reason, the 'amplified' replacement version I was using, was not audible, at all. It played ok in WMP and in the sound editing proggie i was using ('Audacity') but it seems not to work, in the CFS3/OFF sound engine, despite being the right format.

 

I have now mixed a new Stall.wav sound, combined from a background wind noise and a wheel ground rattle, with a little bit of fading in and out at either end. I think this conveys the right sort of effect, of pre-stall buffet and vibration. It starts when the yellow 'near stall' warning text appears, and ends when there is no stall (or near stall) warning, which I think is fine.

 

The only real issue is the volume - it works within a range of the OFF Workshop settings for Engine, Cockpit and Effects, but can be drowned out, outside the workable range. It obviously counts as an 'Effect' because if I have 'Engine' at 100% and 'Effects' at 50%, it is barely audible. I think it's still a lot better than the stock stall sound (which wasn't a 'stall horn', just a sort of uneven but gentle wind sound), since (a) the former doesn't really convey buffeting, and (b) I think the element of 'rattle' means it is less likely to be drowned out by other sounds and therefore audible over a greater range of Workshop sound settings. Some may think it's a bit too conspicuous but for this purpose, too much is better than too little (I never heard the stock sound, at all) and it's better again than an on-screen text warning (which I just confirmed, does indeed display all sorts of other warnings as well as a stall). I might tone down the rattle a little but maybe not.

 

I'll experiment with this for a while in my current campaigns and if I think it's any good I'll upload it. Thanks for the input guys! For info, I've attached the original and replacement sounds.

Edited December 1, 2011 by 33LIMA

[OlPaint01 0]

Hi 33Lima

 

Your Stall.wav file sounds great when played by itself. I am unable to discern the stall sound in the game, however. What four Sound Levels are you running in Workshops to be able to hear stall sound in the cockpit? I have set the following in my game: Engine 60, Effects 40, Cockpit 100, and I/F 80.

 

OlPaint

[33LIMA 972]

I need to do a bit more testing - second try, with a Camel this time - I didn't hear it play either!

 

IIRC when I heard it with the Fokker EV, I had been running at 100% engine, 100% effects, 100%, UI lower (50% but doesn't matter?). Was mystified that I didn't hear it with the Camel, which was clearly stalling. Will report back. I THINK it's 'effects' that affects the volume at which the stall sound plays, and Engine the setting most likely to drown it out. I started testing by doing bog-standard flying lesson stalls, throttle back (so little engine noise!), keeop noise up to maintain alt and let the speed bleed off till she stalls. Definitely heard it then. Ideally we want to hear it in a tight turn at full throttle, too. I think keeping 'effects' high is the key, then reduce engine volume enough. alternatively, as i like my engine loud, I may just amplify the stall sound. A component is one of the OFF wheel rumble sounds and you can hear that over the engine sound, may just need to amplify stallsound a bit.

 

Maybe you could try increading 'Effects' till it's equal to or higher than 'Engine'.

Edited December 2, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Olham 164]

LIMA, I guess the devs have inabled that stall sound, just because WW1 craft didn't have it.

So you would need to know how to change the "scripts" of the sim, to reactivate the noise.

[33LIMA 972]

I've found the problem and have got the stall sound playing again. I must have edited the sound attached above, before I attached it, and the final edit 'nerfed' it, somehow. CFS3/OFF seems fussy about what .wav files it will play.

 

The new stall sound attached below works - it is basically one of the OFF wheel rumble sounds, with a few modifications (using Goldwave now). I had to amplify it a LOT to get it audible above a full-throttle engine sound (using Workshop sound settings for Engine, Effects and cockpit at the same level - 100% in my case).

 

It wasn't possible to amplify it enough without 'clipping' the sound wave so it has ended up a very harsh wind roar sort of sound, better in-game than played on its own but still not what I want. But at least it proves the concept. Rather than working with a stock sound, I think I will have to make a new one, probably with a bit of the background rattle that got lost during amplification, to make its presence more audible above the different (but loud!) roar of the engine.

 

Now, where did I put my mike? Don't think I have used it since I made a British Voice Pack for Panzer Elite, and that was a loooong time ago.