Urgent\help needed from the PC tecchies

[Von Paulus 8]

Tamper you're an encyclopedia of resourceful techniques. While I used the technique of the clip to start some PSUs, I'm ashamed to confess I do have such a PSU tester.

In my defense, I can say that my clients loved to read the output in the small LCD and they firmly believed that result more than when showing with a multimeter.

[NS13Jarhead 6]

Just thought of this one. It was a horrible memory and I had repressed it... Anyway, check the capacitors on your MoBo. There was a rash of bad cappies a while back - they would bulge out or split when they went bad. I had one crap out on me with no warning and it took the mother board with it. I took the machine to the shop and the tech pointed it out to me along with a replacement board.

[Von Paulus 8]

You're right, of course, NS13Jarhead.

Only Tranquilo's motherboard it's an Asus motherboard. I don't even remember one that have passed through my hands with swollen capacitors, over all these years.

But it's always good to check it out.

[Tamper 9]

*lol* VP, I've been around electronics for over 30 years :) I am quite sure I've picked up a thing or two from you (and others) here over the years. No shame in having the PSU tester - they work, of course, and the better ones make sure there's a proper load on the PSU - something the old clip test cannot do, BTW. I've even heard it said that some PSUs won't fire up without a proper load, but I've only seen it happen once, and that wasn't on a PC power supply. Plus, like you said, there's the LCD display...if it says "GOOD", that's far more convincing that a meter with some numbers

 

@ NS13 - Yessir, that's a somewhat common failure, bad caps usually back behind/near the CPU. They rupture when bad (unfortunately, there's also corrosive electrolyte in them which can spill out). Newer, higher-quality motherboards boast "solid" caps which serve the same purpose - usually power filters - but don't have the corrosive leaking hazard.

 

I have a continuous vaccum solder extractor and have replaced several sets of leaky caps, on both motherboards and video cards as well. It wouldn't be a bad idea to look in that area, tranquillo, because it could be the case - and if it is, you might find some enterprising soul willing to remove/replace the caps for you, for cheap.

[Von Paulus 8]

But Tamper, do you remember seen any Asus with swollen caps, even before they moved to solid ones?

Gigabyte also don't remember have seen one, although I cannot compare the numbers of Asus passed through my hands.

[Tamper 9]

But Tamper, do you remember seen any Asus with swollen caps, even before they moved to solid ones? Gigabyte also don't remember have seen one, although I cannot compare the numbers of Asus passed through my hands.

 

Funny you should ask...I've done quite a few, although the specifics tend to escape me; I know there was one MSI board (370SEA, I think) some PCCHips, maybe ECS, BioStar - yeah, mostly bargain brands...and I recall a couple old Nvidia video cards. The reason it's funny you ask is because just this week I'm working on a friend's daughter's machine. Lo-and-behold, bad motherboard; an Asus P4P800S to be exact. Off to eBay to find a replacement. $40, free shipping, board shows up in a few days, whatever.

 

I spent 10 years in the Navy as a micro-miniature solder tech. Out of habit, I look at the solder work on electronic assemblies. This Asus board I bought has some of the worst solder work I've ever seen...I took a picture, should there be any problem with the board. I took the liberty of correcting the (really, really bad) solder work as best I could (there was a lot of damage that was unrepairable, though). I checked with the meter to be sure everything was OK before firing it up.

 

Anyway, you know what had been replaced - all this solder work I'm talking about? The 6 caps right behind the CPU, no joke.

 

I'll be honest, Asus has high-quality stuff, and at own point I was a dedicated Asus owner. I am now very happy with Gigabyte boards, having done a few of those in the past year or so. So, yes, I think they both make good products (IMHO). Do keep in mind that these boards I'm talking about repairing are often very old, so leaky caps doesn't mean they're poorly designed at all; caps just degrade over time. (That board I got this past week, for example, is a P4 socket 478 board; gotta be going on 10 years old...when's the last time you saw one of those?? *lol*).

[Von Paulus 8]

Tamper, I often replace 478 motherboards.

Asrock still makes. And probably it's one of their better success in terms of sales.

Last week exchanged a faulty 478 motherboard (with one cap damaged) with one of those Asrock.

It was the same chipset family has the board I had to replace, so no format needed. That's what I call a clean service.

[tranquillo 10]

ok guys.

here it is......couldn't get hold of my uncle and his meter and the tester arrived so I used it. All voltages are showing within range but the pg signal is reading 995ms and flashing, indicating that it is too high and not good. So it looks like I've got to start (and hopefully finnish) with a new psu.

[Von Paulus 8]

I'm not an electronic expertize, but before you do any thing, I'd wait to see what Tamper has to say about this.

That parameters of Power Good Signal, are defined by Cool Max, I'm not sure if that's reliable or not.

It's a value between 100 and 900.

[Tamper 9]

Hey folks, glad to hear you have some indiction of the issue, Tranquillo - I guess this may be one of the 1-2 times in 10 when the PSU is bad (or, the rare case where the paper clip test would work but the PSU is still not good, according to the tester). The paper-clip test, clever as it might be, can't measure the time delay of that PowerGood signal.

 

For the life of me, I can't imagine why it being 995ms instead of 900 would keep the motherboard from starting...seems to me it would just take those few milliseconds longer and start OK, just the same. That's my understanding of the PowerGood signal, anyway.

 

I have to be honest, this isn't something I ever had a problem with, so I don't know. I have learned, though, that the power good signal can be 'faked' by tying it directly to +5v. This could be done as a test, simply to confirm if that is really all that is wrong with Tranquillo's PC. However, any one of us, individually, might not be at all comfortable with jumping voltages on power supply connectors, etc.

 

Because of this situation, I've learned a new 'trick' that I will definitely try for myself...but I'd have to say everyone would have to decide for themselves whether they feel OK trying it or not. (Nothing at all wrong with knowing where the limits are!)

 

One advantage that I enjoy is having a shop full of parts. If I suspect a PSU, then I can throw one in as a test, without the cost. Not everyone has a basement with parts for every computer built since dirt was invented

 

In any case, a PSU is cheaper than a motherboard, so let's hope it is just a PSU. Tranquillo, if there's anything any of us can do, I'm sure you know where to find us - and let us know how you make out.

 

 

[tranquillo 10]

Thanks, Tamper. From my understanding of pg signal I would agree with you but the meter says "faulty". Are you saying that, if I don't feel adventurous regarding jumping from the +5v then try a psu?

[Tamper 9]

Yes, that's it. Sorry if I wasn't clear. If it were me, I'd try the jumping 5v trick. But if you're not feeling adventurous, which I can certainly understand, then the meter says what it says...

 

...I just wish I understood better why the 95msec would make that much of a difference. I get the specs, sure..but, that just seems so unlikely to me...I guess it is what it is.

 

And I do so sorely wish you were nearby - I'd gladly toss a PSU your way to see if it was that.

 

Man, I sure wish you the best.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Tamper

[Von Paulus 8]

I too also wonder, even if that's an ATX norm, there aren't different tolerance margins from board to board.

Also the graphic card fan is not working. So, or that card is fried, or there's a problem with the PCIe slot or something is preventing from getting the power to her. I can't understand how the pg signal can cause that. He is only helding the CPU in reset state.

Tranquilo, it's really a pity you don't have anyone with a couple of spare parts. It sure could help

Edited January 10, 2012 by Von Paulus

[tranquillo 10]

I'm convinced that it's the mobo - not from having the technical knowledge or esp - it's just a gut feeling. Still, I'm working it through logically and I've ordered a psu. I can always sell it on fleabay. That way I don't lose too much. Trusting my instinct though I also ordered some TIM and I've found a supplier for the exact same board should I need it. I have a feeling that graphics card is fried as well.

I wouldn't be a very good technician would I? Ah, yes sir, my crystal ball tells me it's................

 

And, yes, guys, I would love to have a store of spares or know someone who did. You're very lucky in that respect, Tamper.

[Tamper 9]

Very good, sir...I think you've got the right approach (as well as could be expected in the circumstances). Like you, my gut is still saying motherboard. The graphics card, perhaps - but I wouldn't worry much, the symptom(s) with it (mostly the fan not running, IIRC) could easily be because a voltage regulator on the motherboard isn't firing up.

 

Re: my basement full of parts...somehow, the wife doesn't quite understand how 'lucky' I am to have all this (but at least she does tolerate it).

 

Good luck - Here's to seeing your Windows desktop again soon.

[Von Paulus 8]

Re: my basement full of parts...somehow, the wife doesn't quite understand how 'lucky' I am to have all this (but at least she does tolerate it).

I bet could you assemble a 8086 or a 486.

 

What was the PSU's brand you order?

Edited January 11, 2012 by Von Paulus

[Tamper 9]

Hey, while we wait to hear back from our friend Tranquillo, as an 'intermission' of sorts, I thought I'd post some pics of my mountain of parts. Hopefully they're not too big.

 

(Cue cheesy intermission music...)

 

A few words (in my own defense *lol*): This is my basement, so it's messy. Nobody is supposed to see this Believe it or not, there are at least 4 working PCs in what you see, plus some others undergoing repair, and lots o' parts. You can also see my soldering bench with my extractor - very good tool to have if your doing any solder work. No, you're not imagining things...the pink stuff is insulation, it wasn't chosen for the color (turns out it's cold underground). Finally, the pictures can't do it justice, you really have to stand in the middle of it all to appreciate the full magnificent glory *lol*.

 

Hope you all enjoyed the show.

[Tamper 9]

@ VP 8086 is a little outdated....kidding aside, up until most recently, I had a couple of 286-based machines, intact and running. I've been trying to cut down/clean it up (if you can believe that from the pics *hehehe*). There is, in the middle pic, a fully functional socket 370 P3-1400S machine...it's about the oldest one that (until recently) was actually used time to time (it was an old game server set up for the original Call of Duty; had to replace it because the kids wanted to play MP Minecraft and that actually requires a *very* hefty P4).

Edited January 11, 2012 by Tamper

[Von Paulus 8]

That's a man dreams basement.

It's only missing some retro stuff, like C64's, Atari, Amiga and Apple II posters.

[Tamper 9]

*lol* Thanks, VP...actually - believe it or not - my wife spends almost as much time as I do in there. She was also in the Navy, fully qualified micro-min tech in her own right. She sits at the brown desk (AKA "solder bench") over on the left doing her work, which she actually does pretty well for (part-time PCB assembly).

[Von Paulus 8]

My ex was also good at the solder bench. She used to repair Sinclair Zx-Spectrums, back in the eighties.

Better than I ever can be. But then again I don't solder.

[tranquillo 10]

That basement

VP, ordered same psu as I have - OCZ modxtreme modular 600w.

[Von Paulus 8]

Good brand, as far as I know.

[tranquillo 10]

Hey, Tamper. Just been looking for you on the pilots map and can't see you. I was going to suggest to my wife that we move near you and your basement

[Tamper 9]

Sorry, tranquillo...I'm in a classified location, held captive against my will :) (Actually I'm near Atlanta GA, USA...I keep meaning to ask Olham to put me on the map and just forget). You guys can come visit if like...there's also a very lovely theater room I built down in the basement, adjacent to the shop.

 

But I have to say there's no spare room...you see, that's where the shop is *lol*

 

You know, that power supply you have/have ordered - the OCZ unit...that's a fairly high-quality unit I would think. I have such a hard time imagining that it being "off" by the 95msec for the PG signal is your problem. Hell, I have a hard time believing that it's really all that 'off', TBH. I guess the spec is what it is, but I just don't know.

 

I know you were unable to wait on parts being sent to you, but in hindsight, it almost seems it would've been worthwhile to have a graphics card headed your way as a contingency. By the time you get the PSU, etc. the graphics card could probably have been there.