How good is WOFF's geography...?

[Hauksbee 103]

I've had an itch to scout the Ameins/Corbie/Vaux-sur-Somme area where von Richtofen went down. I've tried and failed twice by flying a mission out of Clairmarais. I figured I could fly nearly due south and cross the Somme, then follow it to Amiens to Corbie. On both occasions I flew for about forty minutes without seeing either the river or the city. But Claimarais is out there a bit, and I thought perhaps I'd just given up too soon. Today I tried again. This time I did it in QC because you can choose the airfield you leave from and I didn't care what I was going to fly.

 

Bertangles is just up the road north of Amiens. (the red square on the Google map) I flew a Nieuport 17 due South for 40 minutes, at an average speed of 80-90 mph (or is it kph?). Either way, I flew at 6500 ft. for forty minutes. I most certainly should have crossed the Somme. I failed to spec the weather, so it was cloudy, but I had TrackIR going and constantly scanned side-to-side just to be sure I didn't overfly my objective.

 

As you'll see on the WOFF map, they have Amiens/Corbie/Cappy lying well south of a pale blue line I take to be the Somme. But in any event, I should have crossed the river.

 

Any ideas on how to navigate to these landmarks?

Edited March 2, 2014 by Hauksbee

[Olham 164]

Just start at Cappy and fly west.

Maybe the river appears smaller-looking in WOFF than you expected?

But lakes and waterways are pretty precise in WOFF - even bridges crossing rivers

are often only some hundred yards off the true bridge - I checked that with GoogleMaps.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Hauksbee, the location of Cappy will be noted on my WOFF Flanders map which is now in the works.  Still a few weeks out but the photo recce is going well.

 

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[shredward 12]

There are some distortions because of the compressed size.

     Cheers,

        shredward

[Hauksbee 103]

My main question is how is it possible to fly straight south (I even put the Nupe on Auto-pilot) and not see the Somme, let alone Amiens? I want to see where the fight happened, so it's Corbie/Vaux-sur-Somme I'm interested in, not Cappy. (tho' I would be interested in seeing that too, but later) Look at the Google map. Amiens is huge. (even allowing for urban growth since 1918) Flying from Bertangles, you should cross it dead-center.

 

I'll try again tomorrow.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Hauksbee

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Fly out of Cachy aerodrome and you will be just east of Amiens.  Can't miss it.

 

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[Olham 164]

Cities are often placed wrong. Metz or Cambrai are also not at their correct locations,

which you can recognise by many roads coming together.

That's why I thought: fly from Cappy - where MvR started. If you fly north-west, you

MUST get to the Somme.

[Hauksbee 103]

Second go at it. This time I took off from the field and took care to spec. clear skies. On the previous attempt I still had my altitude set at 6500. I thought perhaps I had been too fixated on the horizon and the river was much closer, even under my wings. Not so. I flew dead south again and this time crossed a city. Not very big, (but what do I know about the size of Amiens in 1918?) I thought I had made it...but no river. I averaged 100-110 mph and 2500 ft. I flew dead south for a total of 20-25 minutes. Then, getting frustrated, I climbed to 7500 ft hoping with the long view I might see it. No go. Note that on the Google Earth map, Amiens, Corbie and Cappy are on the river. Flying out of Bertangles any angle within South-west/South/South-east has to put you across the Somme.

 

edit: Just checked a distance calculator. Bertangles is only 7.5 klm from Amiens.

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Edited March 2, 2014 by Hauksbee

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Hauksbee, since I am currently mapping this area of the WOFF virtual front allow me to assist.  Here is a clip of the actual WOFF terrain in that area.  Amiens should be to the WNW about 5 miles up by that rail depot, (noted as 'D').  The Somme is out of place as well.  The towns in yellow I've noted from Google Earth but they are not seen in the WOFF landscape, (towns that are are noted as 'T').  While the roads and rail lines match up with real world maps not much else does with any consistency which is why I've started building a few accurate maps that we can navigate by.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

Cheers, and Happy Navigating!

 

Lou

 

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[Hauksbee 103]

Hauksbee, since I am currently mapping this area of the WOFF virtual front allow me to assist.  Here is a clip of the actual WOFF terrain in that area.  Amiens should be to the WNW about 5 miles up by that rail depot, (noted as 'D').  The Somme is out of place as well.  The towns in yellow I've noted from Google Earth but they are not seen in the WOFF landscape, (towns that are are noted as 'T').  While the roads and rail lines match up with real world maps not much else does with any consistency which is why I've started building a few accurate maps that we can navigate by.

Lou: Firstly, thank you for taking on this prodigious effort. It has restored faith in my sanity. I began to fear my years of youthful debauch had burned out one brain cell too many, after all, Amiens simply had to be there! My other fear was that someone else would fly the same route and declare that it was there: I had just missed it. (The lads in the BOC would laugh me to scorn).

 

In addition, I am reeling with shock. To think that the Devs, our Blessed Devs, would have misplaced the Somme! And Amiens, to boot. Corbie and Cappy do not appear? My child-like faith is shattered.

 

That said, even if Amiens were moved 5 miles up, it still wouldn't be on the Somme. And it certainly wouldn't lie 7.5 Km south of Bertangles. But I guess all this is moot because we have to take the Sim as we find it. Its geography can't be moved to square with reality. I find this disappointing because I had hoped to be able to fly a few recon missions in the area on April 20, 1918 to see the lay of the land. Then, when ready, fly another on April 21 to see if RAF 209 and Jasta 11 actually show up. I know that Historical Aces cannot die before their actual death date. What I hoped to find out was, do they die in the same historical way? Would I see Roy Brown slip in on von Richtofen's six, and if he missed (as now seems likely) might I get a shot? Now, with the battlefield so skewed, I'll never know. 'Guess I'll fall back to my original plan: flying Roland C.II's into Verdun 1916 where historicity is not an issue.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Hauksbee, the misplacement of the cities and rivers and such are part of the CFS3 engine so perhaps it is something that the devs simply cannot fix.  I think this has been noted a few times over the years by Pol and Winding Man and others from the team.  I imagine if they could fix these landscape errors they likely would have done so by now, or at least so I assume.  All that being said I should add that just because this particular issue does not reflect upon your youthful debauchery it does not mean you didn't fry one brain cell too many.  That possibility is still open to debate.  

 

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[Hauksbee 103]

That possibility is still open to debate.

It better get settled pretty quick. I'm running out of time.

 

One question remains: As I understand it, WOFF does not spawn planes because all the missions flown on a certain day in WWI are being flown in WOFF on that same day. Can I assume, that if I hang out in the area of Corbie on April 21, 1918 (regardless of its geographical accuracy) I will see RAF No.209 clash with Jasta 11?

Edited March 2, 2014 by Hauksbee

[von Baur 54]

Interestingly (and I bring this up at the risk of being branded as a complete heretic), I had flown the same route in OFF and found that the Somme does flow through Amiens, just a short flight south of Bertangles West, easily found by following the Amiens-Doullens road just east of the airfield (some may remember a screenshot of the road sign just off the field that I posted years ago). And the area around Douai/Lens/etc matched up remarkably well with Rabu's authentic British maps right down to roads and rail lines. And although there were some discrenpancies, even several smaller towns and villages were pretty accurately placed. It's a shame, because improvements to the in-game map were talked up in the build up to WOFF. I've not had the opportunity to examine WOFF closely on this respect yet because I'm having some trouble with the TIR5 software that makes flying somewhat less than fun. 

 

As Hauksbee said, "...we have to take the Sim as we find it."

[Hauksbee 103]

Interestingly (and I bring this up at the risk of being branded as a complete heretic)...

I'm always up for a good heresy. 'Keeps the pot stirred up.

 

I take it then, that flying from Bertangles to Amiens-Somme was possible in OFF, but no longer so? Lou's mapping underscores that. I keep wondering why, after 25 minutes in the air, I never saw the Somme? Perhaps I'll solve that another day.

 

Which leaves this question: As I understand it, WOFF does not spawn planes because all the missions flown on a certain day in WWI are being flown in WOFF on that same day. Can I assume, that if I hang out in the area of Corbie on April 21, 1918 (regardless of its geographical accuracy) I will see RAF No.209 clash with Jasta 11?

Edited March 2, 2014 by Hauksbee