F-5 & MiG-21 Soviet evaluation video

[MigBuster 2,884]

The RT video below contains some quite famous footage of a Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighter formerly stationed at Bien Hoa Air Base in Vietnam being operated in Soviet markings against a MiG-21 (NATO codename “Fishbed”). The aircraft was seized along with “several US military aircraft”, taken to the USSR and used in a test and evaluation project to determine the capabilities of the F-5 series compared to Warsaw Pact aircraft.

 

Bien Hoa Air Base was overrun by Communist forces on Apr. 25, 1975 as the Vietnam War (referred to as the “American War” in Vietnam) neared its end.

 

A number of F-5A and F-5E aircraft attributed to the 522nd Fighter Squadron were left behind intact at the air base. Because the F-5E version of the aircraft had only flown for the first time three years earlier in 1973 and was being marketed to other Western user nations it was of significant interest to the Warsaw Pact.

 

 

 

https://theaviationist.com/2017/06/14/russian-video-of-captured-u-s-f-5a-tiger-jet-dogfighting-against-mig-21-in-tests-raises-question-do-they-still-operate-american-jets/

[+Gepard 11,324]

In the tests the F-5E was flown against MiG-21SM and MiG-23M. Then it was tested against MiG-21bis.

The outcome of the test was not as onesided as stated in the video.

The MiG-23M won every time over long distances and lost every time on short combat distances. The MiG-21SM lost every time. The MiG-21bis won every time in vertical flown combat and had had a hard time during horizonal fight. In acceleration the MiG-21bis was much better than the F-5E. The working conditions of the F-5E pilot and the field of view was much better than in any MiG of this timeframe.

 

Below i post what the soviets found out during the tests. he text is in russins with my own remarks in german language. I will translate it later for you.

 

 

Характеристики виража МиГ-21БИС и F-5E с двумя ракетами ближнего боя.

Источники:
Самолет МИГ-21БИС (75А) Техническое описание. Книга 1. ЛТХ.
T.O. 1F-5E-1 F-5E/F Flight Manual

На высоте 1500 метров время установившегося виража у обоих самолетов одинакого и составляет 27 секунд в районе 0,8М. Beide Flugzeuge in 1.500m und Mach 0.8 27sekunden für Vollkurve
Но на высоте 9 км, время виража заметно различается: Daten für 9km
МиГ-21 - 78 секунд.
F-5E - 63 секунды.

На малой высоте:
МиГ-21БИС
Радиус установившегося виража самолета МиГ-21БИС с максимальной угловой скоростью на высоте 1000 м, скорости 0,75М, чрезвычайном режиме работы двигателя составляет 1150 м.
F-5E
Радиус установившегося виража самолета F-5E с максимальной угловой скоростью на высоте 1500 м, скорости 0,72М, режим работы двигателя полный форсаж составляет 1050 м.

На большой высоте:
МиГ-21БИС
Радиус установившегося виража самолета МиГ-21БИС с максимальной угловой скоростью на высоте 11000 м, скорости 0,9М, режим работы двигателя полный форсаж составляет 4500 м.
F-5E
Радиус установившегося виража самолета F-5E с максимальной угловой скоростью на высоте 9000 м, скорости 0,8М, режим работы двигателя полный форсаж составляет 2500 м.


На всех высотах наблюдается преимущество F-5E в радиусе установившегося виража. С увеличением высоты преимущество возрастает F-5E. Сказывается более мощная механизация крыла.

На малых высотах 1000-1500 метров угловые скорости установившегося разворота у самолетов практически равны и составляют 13,3 гр/сек. Stationäre Wenderate beider Flugzeuge
На высоте 9000 метров самолет F-5E имеет преимущество в угловой скорости установившегося разворота 5,8 гр/сек против 4,6 гр./сек. у МиГ-21бис.


Ниже приведены диаграммы для самолета МиГ-21бис.

1. Ищем скорость самолета с наименьшим временем выполнения установившегося виража (максимальная угловая скорость) для высоты 1 км - 0,75м
2. Ищем скорость самолета с наименьшим временем выполнения установившегося виража (максимальная угловая скорость) для высоты 9 и 11 км. - 0,9М
3. Ищем для высоты 1 км и скорости 0,75М радиус виража - 1150 м.
4. Ищем для высоты 11 км и скорости 0,9М радиус виража - 4500 м.

Источники:
Самолет МИГ-21БИС (75А) Техническое описание. Книга 1. ЛТХ.
T.O. 1F-5E-1 F-5E/F Flight Manual

Расчетный случай:
- Снаряженный самолет с летчиком и полным боезапасом к пушке (пушкам).
- Половинный запас топлива внутренних баков.
- Две ракеты ближнего боя.

МиГ-21БИС
250 23мм снарядов к пушке, 1270 кг топлива, 2 ракеты Р-13М.
Общий вес 7500 кг.

F-5E
560 20мм снярядов к пушкам, 1000 кг топлива, 2 ракеты AIM-9J.
Общий вес 6122 кг.

Разгонные характеристики самолетов

У земли
МиГ-21БИС
Время разгона от 0,5М до 0,9М на чрезвычайном режиме работы двигателя на высоте 1000 м составляет 21 секунду. Beschleunigungszeit
F-5E
Время разгона от 0,5М до 0,9М на полном форсаже на высоте 1000 м составляет 27 секунд.

На большой высоте
МиГ-21БИС
Время разгона от 1М до 1,5М на полном форсаже на высоте 13000 м составляет 250 секунд.
F-5E
Время разгона от 1М до 1,5М на полном форсаже на высоте 10800 м составляет 204 секунды.

Можно констатировать, что на малой высоте самолет МиГ-21БИС имеет преимущество во времени разгона, 21 против 27 секунд у F-5E.

В следствие того, что данные по разгону на большой высоте приведены для разных значений высот, сделать однозначные выводы затруднительно.
Но можно отметить, что самолет МиГ-21 из-за невозможности использовать на высотах более 4 км чрезвычайного режима двигателя имеет меньшую тяговооруженность чем у земли.

Источники:
Самолет МИГ-21БИС (75А) Техническое описание. Книга 1. ЛТХ.
T.O. 1F-5E-1 F-5E/F Flight Manual

Расчетный случай:
- Снаряженный самолет с летчиком и полным боезапасом к пушке (пушкам).
- Полный запас топлива внутренних баков.
- Две ракеты ближнего боя.

МиГ-21БИС
250 23мм снарядов к пушке, 2400 кг топлива, 2 ракеты Р-13М.
Общий вес 8726 кг.

F-5E
560 20мм снярядов к пушкам, 2000 кг топлива, 2 ракеты AIM-9J.
Общий вес 7120 кг.

Время набора высоты 10 000 м Steigzeit
МиГ-21БИС
Время набора на режиме полный форсаж составляет 115 секунд.
F-5E
Время набора на режиме полный форсаж составляет 110 секунд.

Врямя набора высоты 10 км у сравнивамых самолетов практически одинаковое (в пределах ошибок чтения номограмм).

[MigBuster 2,884]

Will your translation beat Google?

 

Characteristics superelevation MIG-21bis and F-5E with two close combat rockets. 

Sources: 
MiG-21bis (75A) Technical description. Book 1. LTH. 
TO 1F-5E-1, F-5E / F Flight Manual 

At an altitude of 1,500 meters during a steady bend both planes is the same and is 27 seconds in 0.8M area. Beide Flugzeuge in 1.500m und Mach 0.8 27sekunden
für Vollkurve But at an altitude of 9 km, while a bend is markedly different: to list Daten für 9km
MiG-21 - 78 seconds. 
F-5E - 63 seconds. 

At low altitude : 
MIG -21BIS 
radius steady superelevation MiG-21bis a maximum angular velocity at a height of 1000 m , the speed of 0.75 M , emergency operation of the engine is 1150 m . 
F-5E
radius steady bend plane F-5E to a maximum angular velocity at a height of 1500 m , the speed of 0.72 M , the full engine operation the afterburner is 1050 m . 

At high altitude : 
MIG -21BIS
radius bend steady MiG-21bis a maximum angular velocity at a height of 11,000 m , the speed of 0.9 M , the full engine operation the afterburner is 4500 m . 
F-5E
radius steady bend plane F-5E to a maximum angular velocity at a height of 9000 m , the speed of 0.8 M , the full engine operation the afterburner is 2500 m . 


At all altitudes, there is the advantage of F-5E in a radius of a steady bend . With increasing height the advantage of increased F-5E. It affects more powerful wing mechanization. 

At low altitudes 1000-1500 meters angular velocity of a steady reversal in aircraft is practically equal and 13.3 g / sec . Stationäre Wenderate beider Flugzeuge
At an altitude of 9000 meters of the aircraft F-5E has the advantage of the angular velocity of the steady turning 5.8 m / sec vs. 4.6 g ./ seconds . in the MiG -21 bis . 


Below are diagrams for MiG-21bis. 

1. Looking aircraft velocity with the least runtime steady superelevation (maximum angular velocity) for a height of 1 km - 0.75 m 
2. Looking aircraft velocity with the least runtime steady superelevation (maximum angular velocity) to a height of 9 and 11 km. - 0,9m 
3. Looking for a height of 1 km, and the speed 0.75m radius bend -. 1 150 m 
4. Looking to 11km altitude and velocity bend radius of 0,9 - 4500 m.

 

Sources: 
MiG-21bis (75A) Technical description. Book 1. LTH. 
TO 1F-5E-1 F-5E / F Flight Manual 

Calculation case: 
- Wet aircraft with a pilot and full ammunition to the gun (gun). 
- half the amount of fuel internal tanks. 
- Two rockets melee. 

Mig-21bis 
250 23mm shells to the gun, 1270 kg of fuel, 2 R-13M. 
The total weight of 7500 kg. 

F-5E 
560 snyaryadov to 20mm guns, 1000 kg of fuel 2 AIM-9J missile. 
The total weight of 6122 kg. 

Acceleration aircraft 

have land 
MiG -21BIS
Acceleration time from 0.5 M to 0.9 M at an emergency operation of the engine at a height of 1000 m was 21 sec . Beschleunigungszeit 
the F-5E
acceleration time from 0.5 M to 0.9 m at full afterburner at an altitude of 1000 meters is 27 seconds . 

At high altitude 
MiG -21BIS
Acceleration time from 1 M to 1.5 M at full afterburner at an altitude of 13,000 m was 250 seconds. 
F-5E
Acceleration from 1M to 1.5M to full afterburner at an altitude of 10,800 m was 204 seconds. 

It is possible to state that in the low- altitude aircraft MiG -21BIS has the advantage of time acceleration , 21 against 27 seconds in the F-5E. 

In consequence of the fact that the data on acceleration at high altitude are shown for different values of the heights to make definitive conclusions difficult. 
But it should be noted that the MiG-21 due to the inability to use at altitudes of more than 4 km of the emergency mode of the engine thrust-weight ratio is less than that of the earth.

 

Sources: 
MiG-21bis (75A) Technical description. Book 1. LTH. 
TO 1F-5E-1 F-5E / F Flight Manual 

Calculation case: 
- Wet aircraft with a pilot and full ammunition to the gun (gun). 
- Full fuel capacity internal tank. 
- Two rockets melee. 

Mig-21bis 
250 23mm shells to the gun, 2400 kg of fuel, 2 R-13M. 
The total weight of 8726 kg. 

F-5E 
560 snyaryadov to 20mm guns, 2000 kg of fuel 2 AIM-9J missile. 
The total weight of 7120 kg. 

Time set height of 10 000 m Steigzeit MiG -21BIS Time set mode at a complete afterburning is 115 seconds. F-5E set time on full afterburner mode is 110 seconds. Vryamya set the height of 10 km at sravnivamyh aircraft virtually identical (within nomograms read errors). 
 

[MigBuster 2,884]

This is related but more regarding the fly offs so not scientific manual figures as above and you can of course bring the pilot factor into it.

 

 

I think this can be of a great interest to the community, as it was for me. This is an excerption from the book "Life-Long Runway" written by the Soviet Air Force test pilot Vladimir Kondaurov. The story is that in 1976 the Soviets got an F-5E to test. Here is what the test pilot made out of it.

The translation was made by myself. English is not my native language, so, please, forgive me if the text is not perfect.
 

 

In the summer of 1976 a disassembled American F-5 fighter jet was delivered to our base at Aktubinsk. To be correct, it was F-5E - the latest variant with increased engines thrust. By the size it was smaller than MiG-21, had two engines installed side-by-side in the fuselage, a sharp swept-down nose and short tapered wings. The war in Vietnam had finished, and the United States Air Forces were leaving this long-suffering country, hastily abandoning several aircraft of this type on one of the airfields. One of them was handed over to the USSR together with its pilot manual. There were no technical descriptions, but our engineers figured everything out, assembled it to the last bolt and made it flyable, bringing not only the foreign hard pieces together, but also tons of electric wiring. A test brigade was formed to conduct special flight tests, and a program was written, which assumed 35-40 test flights. I was one of the test pilots, our lead was Nikolay Stogov.

After a proper training I was trusted to perform the first speed run on the runway and then a run with a 3-6 feet jump. These precautions had their reasons in our uncertainty, that all the systems had been assembled and connected correctly.

And finally, we were alone. The "Foreigner" hid within. From the manual I knew, that it had had no problems in operation whatsoever. But I also knew that every manufacturer had their own zest in the product. Unlike our fighters in production, the "Foreigner" had brakes on pedals, which we had on heavy aircraft only. The cockpit was not cluttered by various switches and circuit breakers unneeded in flight. They were all concentrated in a single horizontal "stock" away from the working area. I understood that F-5 was a way not the most modern plane and that it was inferior even to MiG-21, but, nonetheless, I liked the cockpit layout. I decided to make the run on the second runway, which was the longest one. "There is never too much runway ahead," I thought, taxiing to the runway. It was the winter of 1976-77. Of course, there was no reason to hide I was proud that the only aircraft of this type available in the USSR was trusted to me.

I turned on the extension of the nose strut - the electrohydraulic retractor engaged, and the nose of the aircraft started to "crawl" up. "How about that?" I shook my head surprised. "Couldn't you do without it on this little one?" As for me, not a common way to reduce your takeoff roll. In the USSR, only Myasischev used this on M-3 and M-4 - the heavy long-range bombers with a tandem gear layout, thus with very short nose struts.

"Alright," I thought, "we kneeled, so let's run. It is awkward to fool around this way." I increased thrust and released the brakes. The aircraft started to roll. It rolled evenly, reluctantly gaining speed. Aha! That's why they raise the nose strut! The engines are feeble, and the wing is too small. I lifted the nosewheel off the ground and held the airplane from the premature liftoff. Enough for this time. I powered back and lowered the nose. And then... what the heck? The entire nose started to shake and vibrate, then it started to wander left and right so violently, I thought it would just fall the hell off in a moment. Something was screeching and rumbling below. My first thought was about the nosewheel shimmy, but then I realized the nosewheel had been destroyed. I pulled the drag chute handle. "Not the brakes... Main wheels damage is the last thing we need: we don't have spares," the thoughts were rushing in my mind. Gradually reducing the speed, I stopped. I switched everything off, opened the canopy and impatiently jumped down onto the tarmac. I looked and I was puzzled: the wheel was intact. "That's strange! So what were you so unhappy with?" I looked at the "Foreigner" suspiciously. It turned out that he was unhappy with our runway condition: rough grooves and seams were so deep, and the surface of the concrete was decayed, so he just didn't stand it. One bolt was cut off, and the strut together with the wheel was turning around.

- "Nice! Ours don't do things like that," I gave his nose a pat and whispered: "Don't worry, we'll find a new bolt for you and you'll gallop around again!"

As I got to know the "Foreigner" I grew up in my respect to him both as to the flying machine and as to the fighter jet. Unapt to aggressive maneuvering when in "cruise" configuration (flaps and slats up), he would have changed when the pilot put it into the "maneuvering" configuration (flaps and slats down). Then from a heavy clodhopper he turned into a swallow. Checking out the capabilities of the optical sight, I enjoyed keeping the reticle on the target while attacking with a 6g pull, whereas on MiG-21 it would disappear from the view at 3g.

After determining the basic specification we decided to set up for a mock air-to-air combat with MiG-21bis. I would fight on my "native" MiG-21, and Nikolay Stogov - on F-5. The close air combat started head-on in equal positions. Every flight ended with the same result: MiG-21 lost, although he had much higher thrust-to-weight ratio. I laid myself out just to keep the initial position. I took the most out of the aircraft, took all he could give, but the targeting angle grew steadily and in a few minutes the "bandit" was on my tail. Only tactics could save me. What I was stricken by the most is that the result of the mock fights took not only the generals by surprise (one could explain this somehow), but also the military research departments of the Air Force and even the aviation engineers. They would review the data records for thousand times, ask the pilots, especially me. Frankly, I was somewhat confused as well, but when I tried the F-5, I realized that it was not an ordinary one.

So, what was happening in flight? At the speeds of 800 km/h (430 kts) and above the fight was on equal terms, nobody had explicit advantages, but the fighting was not literally maneuvering because of the large radii of the maneuvers. We would both stay at the equal maximum allowable g-loads. Whilst at the speeds below 750 km/h (400 kts) one couldn't sustain these g-loads even with the afterburner. And the lower the speed was the faster it decayed, thus lowering the maximum available g-load. It turned out that the aerodynamics was what won the day, not the thrust/weight ratio. But how was I to explain all this to the people above? They wouldn't have patted our backs for this. Then the MiG company representatives suggested:

- "Let's set MiG-23M against him."

- "But they cannot be compared to one another; they are from different generations." The chief of our research institute objected.

The chief of our institute, colonel general I. Gaidayenko had been a fighter-pilot during World War II and a wingman of the very P. Kutakov, who was the supreme commander of the Air Force at the time of our struggle with the F-5. The result of the test flights was supposed to be reported to Kutakov.

- "So what? We will kick his ass anyway!" 2nd lead engineer of MiG-23M spoke out, rubbing his hands in expectance of the revenge.

Well, the ass was kicked, for sure... but one of our own. The result was the same with the only exception that the agony lasted for 4-5 minutes. You have also to keep in mind that I had been considered a pilot capable of any stall and spin recovery and I had been permitted to break any angle of attack limitations. In the dogfight, I set the optimal wing sweep manually, but all in vain. The foreigner would slowly, but steadily, approach my tail. After these flights all calmed down for some time, all discussions ceased. The chief of the RI ordered to promptly compile a statement on the tests and directed me and Stogov to Moscow, to the Central Research Institution No. 30, which was involved in elaboration of the long-term problems of aviation advancement.

Paying a visit to one of its departments we asked, what they could tell us about the MiG-21 advantages over the F-5E.

- "Oh!" The military scientists immediately exclaimed. "With pleasure! There is a fray right now between Ethiopia and Somalia, and these very aircraft fight each other there. And we are busy preparing recommendations for the pilots on how to successfully fight the F-5 in aerial combat."

- "And what you've got?" I asked with an interest.

- "Take a look at the graph of the attack success probability. See? We beat him everywhere."

- "Indeed," I droned, looking at the so familiar graph in front of me and feeling somewhat hurt for the "Foreigner".

- "And what're the odds?" My friend asked, making a face of a village gull.

- "We've got much better thrust-to-weight ratio," the scientist replied in a voice of a mentor, who knew his worth.

- "Alright, then could you read this Statement and give us your final conclusion, please? And..."

- "And we'll go have a lunch," Nikolay suggested, "You know, on an errand it's like in defense: the meal is the ultimate thing."

This was the end of our work on the comparative evaluation of the "Foreigner" and our Soviet fighters. I don't know what kind of discussions were held "up there", but I know for sure, that the recommendations for the Ethiopian pilots were changed. Our "experts" suggested not to engage in a close dogfight, but to use the "hit-and-run" tactics instead. What about MiG-23, everyone preferred to forget about it. You bet! It had been supposed to fight even more advanced aircraft! Our Statement was classified as top secret and removed somewhere away from the eyes. The "Foreigner" was given to the aviation industry specialists with a strict clause: no flying, but to disassemble and study the structural features to use the knowledge in further projects. Some time passed, and the Su-25 close air support aircraft emerged. It had the wheel brakes on the rudder pedals, "maneuvering" wing configuration and a different approach to the cockpit layout. In the terms of the pilot workstation our engineers went even further, and nowadays the cockpit of MiG-29 can serve as an exemplar for similar foreign combat aircraft. The same can be said about the aerodynamics. The aerodynamic capabilities of Su-27 fighter are considered unexcelled so far. It appears that what is clear for one is a revelation for the other. I believe that similar situations arose in the USA as well, as they got our aircraft at times from MiG-21 to MiG-29. We had luck only once.

 

http://testpilot.ru/review/runway/volga/volga_xvi.htm