F-4E Kurnass pack WIP

[+dtmdragon 2,784]

On 23/08/2024 at 1:20 AM, RustyKurnass said:

You're right about the Sparrows

A picture showing the returning pòane of Ben Ami Peri after the succesful CAP mission that signed the last Kurnass kill ( during the Lebanon War in 1982) show two Aim-9D under the left wing, the empty rails for the Python 3( no Shafrir ,offiacialy) used to downing the MiG-21 under the right wing and no Sparrows

 

6 hours ago, RustyKurnass said:

Sorry for the ultra late response...

The book is "Israeli Phantoms - The Kurnass in IDF/AF service 1969-1988" from Double Ugly! Book

The books I own always state that the Winder were Aim-9D but the -G as you said were in use with the F-15 at the time but really don't know if the Kurnass force shared the weapons with the Baz/Eagles

On the Isradecals book dedicated to the F-15 Baz, the early Python adapter can be seen in some pocs but never clearly unfortunately. If remember correctely also the F-4 at first used the underpylon adapter for the Python, need to check

Thanks for the podcast mate

Thanks for that mate, so in the photo you mention is the empty rails for the Python 3 the 'special underpylon adapter' or the extended ones that replace the AIM-9 rails in the traditional location?

[RustyKurnass 663]

Ubfortunately mate, the photo show the bird from the forward left qurter and the Python were carried on the right inner pylon. Will see if can send you the image.

BTW the book stated that two Sparrows were carried during the mission, the photo show the forward bays empty, so I immagine that were loaded in the rear's

[+dtmdragon 2,784]

On 18/11/2024 at 2:02 AM, RustyKurnass said:

Ubfortunately mate, the photo show the bird from the forward left qurter and the Python were carried on the right inner pylon. Will see if can send you the image.

BTW the book stated that two Sparrows were carried during the mission, the photo show the forward bays empty, so I immagine that were loaded in the rear's

Yes please mate

[+dtmdragon 2,784]

On 18/11/2024 at 2:02 AM, RustyKurnass said:

Ubfortunately mate, the photo show the bird from the forward left qurter and the Python were carried on the right inner pylon. Will see if can send you the image.

BTW the book stated that two Sparrows were carried during the mission, the photo show the forward bays empty, so I immagine that were loaded in the rear's

Hey mate, I'm still keen on checking out that image if it might shed some more light thanks mate @RustyKurnass

[+dtmdragon 2,784]

F-4E Kurnass Israeli Airforce pack 3.3 uploaded and awaiting approval.

3.3:
- AN/AXQ-14 (IDF) and AN/AWW-9 added. Appropriate loadouts and campaigns adjusted accordingly.
- Missing GBU-15 added.
- F-4E Kurnass now split into F-4E Kurnass and F-4E Kurnass (69) to better reflect the difference between the AN/APS-107 and the AN/APR-36 RWR in the first two batches delivered in 1969.
- Nominal Israeli 20kt early nuclear bombs and effects added. Based on author and historian Tom Coopers research.

 

 

Edited June 4 by dtmdragon

[+daddyairplanes 11,197]

gonna say, i still think thats wrong for a nuke.

the israelis were playing that close to the chest through the 80s, and didnt want to show off they were a nuclear power.  so i alwaysl felt a first gen nuclear bomb for them would look as much like a fuel tank as possible

think on the book Sum of All Fears; the nuke gets lost because it was mistaken for a fuel tank and they had no time to download it before launching the strike (something happened tothe weapons guard iirc so no one to mention its not a fuel tank)

one wouldnt make that mistake with an AN-52 clone

 

[+dtmdragon 2,784]

On 8/06/2025 at 2:30 AM, daddyairplanes said:

gonna say, i still think thats wrong for a nuke.

the israelis were playing that close to the chest through the 80s, and didnt want to show off they were a nuclear power.  so i alwaysl felt a first gen nuclear bomb for them would look as much like a fuel tank as possible

think on the book Sum of All Fears; the nuke gets lost because it was mistaken for a fuel tank and they had no time to download it before launching the strike (something happened tothe weapons guard iirc so no one to mention its not a fuel tank)

one wouldnt make that mistake with an AN-52 clone

 

With regards to the design of the Israeli bomb:

"It is widely assumed that the design of early Israeli nuclear weapons was strongly influenced by the second generation of French-made tactical nuclear weapons – especially the AN-52 nuclear bomb (first tested on 28 August 1972), roughly equivalent to such US-made tactical nuclear weapons as the Mark 7, Mark 8, Mark 11 and Mark 12"

And with regards to Israel not wanting to show thier hand as a nuclear power, they did exactly that during the 1973 war:

"Israeli then introduced what even the historians of the National Security Archives in Washington refer to as ‘an element of nuclear blackmail’.....

.....Shalheveth Freier, the ministerial forum decided to ‘arm and target the nuclear arsenal in the event of total collapse’, or at least a ‘nuclear demonstration’, but also to ‘inform Washington of its unprecedented action’ – and then demand initiation of an ‘emergency airlift to supply Israel.....

.....Correspondingly, several MD.620s of No. 150 Squadron were pulled out of their shelters and armed with nuclear warheads, while nuclear bombs were loaded on six modified F-4Es at Tel Nov AB, ‘at least to influence Washington’.....

.....Whether it was Kissinger’s agreement – or ‘promise’ – to resupply Israeli stocks of aircraft, tanks and ammunition, or something else that eventually prompted the Israelis to de-activate their Jerichos, remains unclear."

1973-the-first-nuclear-war-crucial-air-battles-of-the-october-1973-arab-israeli-war-9781914377389_compress.pdf

Also from another research report about the bombs design:

"A. Warhead Type and Fissile Material

There is a strong consensus among analysts and in declassified intelligence documents that Israel's early nuclear weapons, including those readied during the 1973 Yom Kippur War, were plutonium-based implosion-type fission devices. The fissile plutonium (weapons-grade Pu-239) was produced at the IRR-2 heavy water reactor and chemically separated from irradiated fuel elements at the associated reprocessing facility, both located at the Negev Nuclear Research Center near Dimona.

The extensive French assistance provided to Israel for the Dimona reactor, heavy water supply, and critical plutonium separation technology was indispensable. Early French nuclear weapons, such as the AN-11 and AN-22 gravity bombs developed in the 1960s, were themselves plutonium-based implosion devices. Given the depth, sensitivity, and clandestine nature of this Franco-Israeli nuclear cooperation, it is highly probable that French technical expertise and design philosophies for plutonium implosion weapons were influential, if not directly shared, during the development of Israel's first generation of nuclear devices. This suggests a potential lineage for early Israeli bomb design that may reflect French technological approaches of that era, adapted to Israel's specific requirements and indigenous capabilities, rather than solely drawing parallels to early U.S. devices like the Fat Man."

I researched the absolute s#*t out of this before I was satisfied enough to include a nominal Israeli nuclear bomb based on the AN-52 in this pack. I am satisfied that it is more probably than not that this is how the bomb was designed (with French influence/ assistance) and looked (influenced if not based on the AN-52). The existence, warhead type and yield is beyond doubt. As is the placing of nuclear armed aircraft on alert to 'persuade' the American's to help and 'just in case' after the failed Israeli counterattack in the Sinai. This pack is not a 'what if' and is as factual as possible.

P.S. I absolutely love Tom Clancy books, games and movies but sorry Tom there's no way the Skyhawk carried Israel's nuclear bombs, it was the Mirage first and then the Phantom 😁

Edited Tuesday at 08:39 AM by dtmdragon

[+daddyairplanes 11,197]

i stand corrected. never got that much info on non US weapons

only point debated is the Skyhawk, since carrying a Mk7 was practicaly a design point and i think more likely for the nuclear related avionics to get missed in shipping. look at teh stink when the Israelis asked for the same to be included in their F-4Es; why would they think to ask? but if French based, it would make sense to arm the Mirages first