Caesar

Concur with EricJ. Way back on this thread, I posted an A-7E vs. MiG-21 scenario. The A-7 didn't do half bad. It wasn't stellar in a sustained turn, but its overall performance was good enough to allow me the win against the Fishbed the two times I fought it.

I'd definitely get this if it ever gets done. I recall IRIS had been on a similar journey that never came to fruition. I'd say I'm tentatively hopeful.

From "Scream of Eagles," "Tooter" Teague (who flew one of the captured MiG-17's) put it that: "We found out very quickly that the MiG ['17] goes out of control at 450 knots...He [the '17] locks up at about 425 and he goes absolutely left wing down...his wing warps...so if he goes 500 knots he's out of control He's in a left wing roll an can't do anything about it. So just do 500 knots and it becomes only a question of eyes. Keeping sight and keeping fast." (p. 138). This is backed up in Red Eagles: "We had to teach them that if they could - as a defender in an American airplane - get the MiG-17 into the 450-knot regime, and then start to turn, then the MiG pilot would have to overcome this huge aerodynamic load on the tail without any hydraulic assistance. He may have had the potential to pull 7Gs, but he could probably pull no more than 2Gs because he simply didn't have the physical strength to overcome the loads on the tail." (p.132) And yes, the values do step up. In each section in the data.ini for aerodynamics, thrust, etc. there are increments by mach number, altitude, etc. So, if you are looking at the Cmq values for the MiG-17, for example, for speed they step by values of 0.1M, starting at 0.0M, and are modeled out to 1.3M, though the aircraft can't achieve that speed. I figured .8M was somewhere around 450KIAS, so that's where I started to lessen the efficiency and build the aerodynamic load.

So I was thinking about the MiG-17's UFO-ness and that in reality it had a lot of difficulty turning above around 450 knots, so after looking at some of the values in its data.ini, I've found a way to simulate the Fresco's high-speed problems due to lack of hydraulics. What I did was minimize the lift coefficient (Cla) of the horizontal tail at high speed, and heavily increase the aerodynamic pitch dampening coefficient (Cmq) for the same. The result? About a 2.5g max turn at above .8M! I went ahead and tested the flight model both in the MiG-17 and against it. In AI hands, the Fresco is nowhere near the fearsome opponent it had been. When the aircraft tries to turn into you at high subsonic speeds, its low-g max (due to aerodynamic forces on the tail) make it turn like a brick. It is especially effective if you can get the -17 to dive on you, because it will pass its max maneuvering speed and be next to unable to do anything but hit the airbrakes. Now, once it does, it will quickly drop below the .8M limit, and quickly build "g" and rate. Result? I almost got shot down flying the F-4 against the MiG-17 as I chased it in a dive. As the Fresco entered "ground avoidance" mode, it popped the brakes, pulled, got to about .75M, and began loading "g" like a madman. So much "g," in fact, that he got his nose around just before I was in firing range, and we both took a snap shot at each other as we passed. This is kind of typical of the TW Fresco; I didn't adjust any sub-.8M values, so business as usual there. What the biggest difference is, is that the Fresco can't just whip around and counter you at will if its going too fast like the stock model can. Flying in the Fresco, there isn't too much noticeable change. As a player, the aircraft "feels" better at low speeds, and so I think I ran into the limits once against a Lightning, just to see what would happen. Thing to remember is the airbrake if you're trying to chase someone, push past the magic number, and your target takes a hard turn. So what this change does is hobble the aircraft at high subsonic speeds, just as it was in real life, though whether or not it is too much or too little I don't know yet. Need to read up a little more on the MiG-17. As such, the AI will be unable to pull a 10 or 12g turn at 500 knots and get right on your tail like it used to be able to; rather, it must keep the bird below .8M, where it handles best anyhow. Thought it was an interesting experiment. Give it a shot if you want: MIG-17F_DATA.7z

Your F-14D_92 and F-14D_96 folders should have several without the dark grey anti-glare. There aren't many squadrons that flew the F-14D, but VF-11 and VF-213 both have a few paint schemes without anti-glare. VF-31 generally does, or has outright black, and VF-2 has at least one scheme without dark grey (think "VF2CO00" in F-14B_96).

I was wondering where the heck that came from, took about 5 seconds, then I remembered - Weebl! Interesting its in a commercial now.

Great find!

That short re-do of the Bullitt chase was actually pretty entertaining! One of the things I love about older car chases is the lack of CGI. While, yes, the camera cuts and the scene is edited together, everything you see is actually being done by a driver with a car. There's that feeling of genuine danger you don't get with modern, "enhanced" sequences. Looks like the folks on that show were trying to keep it as real as possible.

Started with ALB and got RD when it was in Beta. RD's probably my favorite; air, land, AND sea! Also, gotta' love the free patches and DLC!

Took up a Lightning F6 against a MiG-21F-13. I've identified the areas of difficulty I have, and need to work out some TTP to counter them. First, while the rudder works normally straight and level, once you put alpha on the jet, the rudder pretty much works in reverse. If you put in left rudder, the aircraft yaws left for a micro-second, then begins a harsh right roll. If it is at any significant deflection, the aircraft begins an almost uncontrollable roll in the opposite direction of deflection. Zeroizing the rudder requires about 270-degrees to 360-degrees of roll to recover from. Holding it longer, the aircraft skids while rolling. So, more gentle and opposite of what I'm used to doing. Secondly, the Lightning can sustain higher "g" than a MiG-21F-13, but has to be going pretty fast to do it, meaning I don't end up with a rate advantage in most regimes. While I was able to get behind the Fishbed's 3/9 line, I discovered I'd invariably drop the nose in the turn very quickly after entering my turn. Can't counter with rudder, so it's this jerking motion trying to use lateral stick, while still pulling... The Lightning was much superior in the vertical, and easily out-accelerated the Fishbed, and this was an improvement; I actually got behind the Fishbed about two or three times, but couldn't ever capitalize on my position. Need more practice.

Well, in the 1v8, I wasn't using long range missiles in the F-14, just guns and rear-aspect heaters, so the Lightning's lack of RWR was no factor. The Lightnings, however, DID have face-shooters, but early '70's missiles aren't very chaff resistant, which kept me alive to the merge. From there, it was really a matter of sustaining a better turn rate. I'll have to work on the speed in the Lightning to find its best sustained turn; I was trying to keep it closer to 400-450 (and I was using the F6), which gave a way too wide circle against the MiG-17s, at a rate that was waaaaaaaaay too low against the smaller bird. The supercruise was one of the biggest saving graces I had. Pushing the vertical, I could make swooping attacks, but I gotta figure out the rudder work. Any time I was trying to roll and pull coming down on the Frescoes, I had the damnedest time lining up for a shot. Like I said above, I've got to try to take on something not so MiG-17/UFO like to try to get used to it. Not tough with the mission editor.

Using the ThirdWire DLC one. It actually handles OK in AI hands, unless you get low - it can't pull out of a dive very well, and I did a 1 v 8 in an F-14A. Four kills right off the bat were because I stayed about 500 feet AGL before the merge, and half crashed. The other four were not tough, but they handled competently, at least. At the controls as a player, the thing feels very unstable. Accelerates like a beast for sure, and I need to try it against more aircraft; MiG-17's aren't a good place to start in TW, being UFO's, just haven't gotten back around to flying the Lightning recently to test against other foes.

Nah, I hear both sides so much I don't care. I half thought to myself, the F-14 probably ID'd him from 8 miles out with the TCS (standard equipment for all F-14's by about '85-86), decided he wasn't a threat, and turned away, especially since they had him on radar prior and the TCS can be slaved to the radar, but it's equally possible they got him on radar, tried to find him, lost him, and would've gotten their asses waxed if he were a real threat! It was a really good read; thanks to MB for sharing.

RoninKazan (formely "Snailman") just did a REDFOR weapons pack where he tried to more accurately model the missiles; might be worth checking out.

That first gun kill was incredible! Funny thing is, I brought up a Lightning in SF2 about three weeks ago for a DACT...I need practice in that bird, it feels so unstable in turns. Cool to see you handle it so well.

If that doesn't work, PM me, and I'll shoot you what I've got. If it works for me, it should work for you.

No, tails are blank on mine. The dogs, tail code and carrier are all decals.

Decal data between the two is identical. Here's what changed from 120 to 121: 1. Changed Throttle Response Times for F-110 and TF-30 engines to better reflect RL engine response times (listed and observed). 2. Changed TCS overlay to better match real TCS, adjusted TCS camera position 3. Changed vapors to appear wings -> intakes -> turtlebacks, from wings -> turtlebacks -> intakes 4. Seeker symbol scaled back to match gun pipper (both are the same in the F-14A/B) 5. New Phoenix Missile by Ravenclaw_007 6. A/C Gross Weights changed to match manual numbers 7. HUD Steering Tee is now only available for radar guided missiles in the F-14A and B; Sidewinder modes and Gun modes did not show the HUD Steering Tee; however, the Sparrow and Phoenix PDSTT/TWS-A/M modes did. 8. Removed TCS cycle function from F-14A_IR (I don't believe it was functional, but one of the screens was the TCS filter.) 9. Added Flat Spin entering arguments and recovery procedures to manual

Just checked my own VF-143 bird. No issues here. Might try a re-install? Or, if not the entire plane, just re-add the decal folder from the install? I think I'm using v121; had to do a fresh install when I swapped out hard drives. The VF-143 decal folder should have the following decals: Intake_L.TGA Intake_R.TGA Tail_LA.TGA Tail_LIKE.TGA Tail_RA.TGA Tail_RIKE.TGA Your decals.ini should read: [Decal001] MeshName=Nose DecalLevel=2 DecalFacing=RIGHT FilenameFormat=USNFighterNum Position=7.8,0.18 Rotation=0.0 Scale=0.8 DecalMaxLOD=4 [Decal002] MeshName=Nose DecalLevel=2 DecalFacing=LEFT FilenameFormat=USNFighterNum Position=7.8,0.18 Rotation=0.0 Scale=0.8 DecalMaxLOD=4 [Decal003] MeshName=LeftFlap DecalLevel=2 DecalFacing=TOP FilenameFormat=USNFighterNum Position=-2.441,-4.3 Rotation=55.0 Scale=1.0 DecalMaxLOD=3 [Decal004] MeshName=RightFlap DecalLevel=2 DecalFacing=TOP FilenameFormat=USNFighterNum Position=2.441,-4.3 Rotation=-55.0 Scale=1.0 DecalMaxLOD=3 [Decal005] MeshName=Left_VertTail DecalLevel=0 DecalFacing=LEFT FilenameFormat=F-14A\VF143\TAIL_LA Position=-7.07,1.58 Rotation=0.0 Scale=3.77 DecalMaxLOD=4 [Decal006] MeshName=Right_VertTail DecalLevel=0 DecalFacing=RIGHT FilenameFormat=F-14A\VF143\TAIL_RA Position=-7.07,1.58 Rotation=0.0 Scale=3.77 DecalMaxLOD=4 [Decal007] MeshName=Left_Rudder DecalLevel=0 DecalFacing=LEFT FilenameFormat=F-14A\VF143\TAIL_LA Position=-7.07,1.58 Rotation=0.0 Scale=3.77 DecalMaxLOD=4 [Decal008] MeshName=Right_Rudder DecalLevel=0 DecalFacing=RIGHT FilenameFormat=F-14A\VF143\TAIL_RA Position=-7.07,1.58 Rotation=0.0 Scale=3.77 DecalMaxLOD=4 [Decal009] MeshName=LeftWing DecalLevel=0 DecalFacing=TOP FilenameFormat=Insignia Position=-4.05,-4.58 Rotation= 67.0 Scale=1.15 DecalMaxLOD=4 [Decal010] MeshName=RightWing DecalLevel=0 DecalFacing=BOTTOM FilenameFormat=Insignia Position= 4.05,-4.58 Rotation= 67.0 Scale=1.15 DecalMaxLOD=4 [Decal011] MeshName=Left_VertTail DecalLevel=2 DecalFacing=LEFT FilenameFormat=USNNUMW Position=-8.39,2.60 Rotation=0.0 Scale=0.40 DecalMaxLOD=4 [Decal012] MeshName=Right_VertTail DecalLevel=2 DecalFacing=RIGHT FilenameFormat=USNNUMW Position=-8.48,2.60 Rotation=0.0 Scale=0.40 DecalMaxLOD=4 [Decal013] MeshName=Nose DecalLevel=0 DecalFacing=RIGHT FilenameFormat=Insignia Position=5.3,-0.155 Rotation=0.0 Scale=1.2 DecalMaxLOD=4 [Decal014] MeshName=Nose DecalLevel=0 DecalFacing=LEFT FilenameFormat=Insignia Position=5.3,-0.155 Rotation=0.0 Scale=1.2 DecalMaxLOD=4 If you've got all this, I'm not sure what's happening, but you may want to re-install the decal folder for VF-143.

That is strange as hell. In your VF-143 decals.ini, do your entries for 005-008 look like this? [Decal005] MeshName=Left_VertTail DecalLevel=0 DecalFacing=LEFT FilenameFormat=F-14A\VF143\TAIL_LA Position=-7.07,1.58 Rotation=0.0 Scale=3.77 DecalMaxLOD=4 [Decal006] MeshName=Right_VertTail DecalLevel=0 DecalFacing=RIGHT FilenameFormat=F-14A\VF143\TAIL_RA Position=-7.07,1.58 Rotation=0.0 Scale=3.77 DecalMaxLOD=4 [Decal007] MeshName=Left_Rudder DecalLevel=0 DecalFacing=LEFT FilenameFormat=F-14A\VF143\TAIL_LA Position=-7.07,1.58 Rotation=0.0 Scale=3.77 DecalMaxLOD=4 [Decal008] MeshName=Right_Rudder DecalLevel=0 DecalFacing=RIGHT FilenameFormat=F-14A\VF143\TAIL_RA Position=-7.07,1.58 Rotation=0.0 Scale=3.77 DecalMaxLOD=4 Those are the "Pukin' Dog" for the tails. LA is Left, RA is Right.

I'm not sure I follow; as in you have three or four decals on the tail, regardless of what squadron you pick? Or is it that you have multiple selections for the same squadron? If it's the latter, that's because different paint schemes for different years were included. If its the former, I've never seen it happen, but can check for a culprit later.

So, I went ahead and flew an F-16C Block 52 and an F-14B to illustrate. Here's a shot of the F-16 as I reach 35,000 feet. Note the difference between the KIAS and KTAS: Now, after waiting for the aircraft to accelerate, you'll notice I've hit my Thrust to Drag limit. Note that the aircraft is travelling at 2.01M, and the Thrust is less than the Drag; the two will meet as the aircraft tries to accelerate, and the Thrust cannot overcome the Drag. Here's the aircraft at 10,000 feet. Notice I'm at the T/D limit at a much lower Mach, also the difference between KIAS and KTAS is much lower than at 35,000 feet. Now the F-14B, at 1,600 feet, T/D limit: And at 35,000 feet: Now, here's the F-14 throttled back to display the disparity between KTAS and KIAS at high altitude. Note, I'm at .94M or 540KTAS, while my KIAS is 299! So, yes, you can reach very high speeds. Perhaps you need to use more thrust, or wait longer for your aircraft to reach those speeds, but the thing is, it takes even modern fighters MINUTES, not SECONDS to reach their maximum speed, and therefore also takes a LOT of gas to do so. Stores will affect your top speed due to increased drag as well (as discussed), so if you're trying to zorch around at Mach 2 with tanks, Maverick Missiles, HARMs and AMRAAM, you might not be able to get that fast. Hope this helps!

Time to test! BRB!

MB beat me to the KIAS vs KTAS, but another question is: what altitude are you flying at? Even an aircraft capable of beating Mach 2 cannot do so at Sea Level, 5,000 feet, 10,000 feet, 20,000 feet; many times even 25,000 feet if it is carrying external stores. For example, the F-14B, an aircraft with an approximate maximum speed of 2.4M (placard 2.34M or 1.88 if you're worried about ramp failure) with 4x AIM-7 and 4x AIM-9 at 25,000 feet will achieve about 1.98M; about .4M below the aircraft's maximum. An F-16A with 2x AIM-9 will do a bit better than 1.8M at the same altitude, again, below maximum listed speeds. At sea level, the F-14B maxes at around 1.2M - nowhere near the aircraft's maximum speed at high altitude. What this boils down to is: Thrust to Drag. You may have very powerful engines, but your aircraft also has to contend with thick air at lower altitudes, and moving that huge mass through the air generates a good deal of drag. More stores = more drag, and lower maximum speed overall, but lower altitude and thicker air REALLY put a damper on maximum speed. As such, most aircraft won't be able to hit their advertised limit until somewhere above 30,000 feet.

Streak, The F-14B/D has the roughly same sustained turn rate as either the F-15C (-220) or F-16 at 10,000 feet, but it achieves that turn at only ~.63M, thus with a better radius (given 4x AIM-7 and 4x AIM-9, and about 60% fuel remaining) but based on TACTS data, the "max lift" line is a little too low if landing flaps are considered.